<p>While I didn’t supply alcohol to HS students, I too have played a bit of beer pong on dad’s weekend. I will surly burn in hell now. At 18, a child is an adult, not a semi adult, an adult. He or she can without parent consent choose to enlist serve and possibly die for our country. They are adults, to think otherwise means our president sends children into wars and is that right? If I had a child who enlisted at 18, would I deny him a beer?</p>
<p>If you don’t enjoy alcohol, please don’t consume it. I enjoy it but it doesn’t consume my life. There has always been and always will be parents who provide too much too early. However there will also be a fallout with kids whose parents deny to much too early. Forbidden fruit. Many of the kids who overdo in college come from dry households. Find a middle ground. Communicate.</p>
<p>“Forbidden fruit. Many of the kids who overdo in college come from dry households.”</p>
<p>Evidence, please? (not anecdotes, but evidence. And the plural of anecdote is not evidence.) Statistically, I can’t find any (I’d like to), and I do this for a living.</p>
<p>And, no, I would NOT like to see a return to the 18 drinking age. This is one law that has really worked! Thousands and thousands of lives have been saved as a result of the higher age, not just in accidents, but in future lives wrecked by alcohol. The European evidence is both overwhelming and mounting that earlier drinking results in much higher rates of alcoholism, liver cancer, cirrhosis, and alcohol-related deaths between the ages of 35-54. And we really have very good studies on the effectiveness of the “18 law”. Because states enacted them in a staggered fashion, it was pretty simple to do state-against-state comparisons, using comparative populations to see just how effective such laws are.</p>
<p>Does that mean that I think every 19-year-old with a beer should be arrested? No more than I think a 19-year-old with a joint should be. Laws are about community mores and norms.</p>
Same in our state and last year at Prom season, the State Attorney General did a substantial PSA campaign reminding parents that she would prosecute. A good thing.</p>
<p>I, too, wouldn’t mind seeing a return to a legal drinking age of 18. But we’re not there yet and I would never serve another child alcohol in my home.</p>
<p>Start with the Cascade HS validictorian who fell to his death a fews years back at the UW his first time drinking. A great kid, top notch. Since you do this for a living I’m sure you’ll take the time to tell me if I’m making this up.</p>
<p>Statistics are often used to prove an arguement or pov. They aren’t necessarily factual, that’s why there statistics. Statistics are probabilities.</p>
<p>I’m sure since you do this for a living you’ll have time to go through all the alcohol related deaths and read the articles about the dry families. </p>
<p>Not trying to go to battle here with you, but just trying to point out moderation and communication between parent and offspring are pretty decent advice. But go ahead, if you feel feisty this morning, jump in with both feet and tell me how that is really bad, bad, a bad thing to ask for.</p>
<p>Don’t work at Evergreen. Work for the state. Yes, young people who drink get in trouble (that’s what your anecdote tells me.) The stats tell me that after the 18-law was enacted, fewer young people drank, those who drank were more likely to do so moderately, and age of first use went up. Alcohol-related fatalities and motor vehicle accidents among young folks went way down. Twenty years later, per capita consumption is at an all time low; abstinence rates are up.</p>
<p>What hasn’t changed is alcoholism. (Genetics is a really big deal.) And here, the evidence of the impact of early drinking (age at first use) is overwhelming. New articles this year in JAMA and the American Journal of Public Health. New studies in England, France, and Sweden. </p>
<p>Goes further than that. There are colleges and universities across the country which have implemented programs and practices to lessen the impact of youth alcohol use. They WORK! There is a whole range of environmental and behavioral strategies that have shown to be effective. They do not eliminate all illicit drinking; nor are they intended to. But there are lots of very promising results.</p>
<p>Agreed. But is HAS at UOklahoma, UGeorgia, Northern Illinois U., Hobart-William Smith, Western Washington U. and several dozen others. I think a bigger test will be UMass. </p>
<p>So now what are the policies which have been recently enacted at Dartmouth or UWisconsin that would even theoretically have an impact? (I don’t have them in my database.)</p>
<p>“Alcohol-related fatalities and motor vehicle accidents among young folks went way down. Twenty years later, per capita consumption is at an all time low; abstinence rates are up.”</p>
<p>but you can also prove that the inclusion of seatbelts have increased number of accidents over time or cellphones and blackberries if you so chose. I have to ask if the number of accidents for any reason have gone up during this same period thus possibly artifical lower statistical number because of a bigger number overall? Could it be the increase of cars on the road and the overall increase in accidents has reduced the number of alcohol related accidents? </p>
<p>Yes alcohol is bad if overconsumed and so are many other things, no arguement. And I know about genetics and probabilities especially with addictive behavors. But I also know demonizing something also leads some to that something. Just ask rep Foley and the minister from colorado or mayor West in our case. </p>
<p>It’s not that I disagree with some of the points here. It’s that I disagree with the demonization of something a majority of people can enjoy in moderation.<br>
The core issue should be helping those with addictive behavors find an alternative that is less harmful to themselves and others. It could be like AA’s encouragement of a relationship with christ. What should be at issue isn’t alcohol’s use, but how some just can’t handle it and should avoid it.</p>
<p>“And I know about genetics and probabilities especially with addictive behavors. But I also know demonizing something also leads some to that something. Just ask rep Foley and the minister from colorado or mayor West in our case.”</p>
<p>Or could he have demonized it because he knew he had that propensity in himself? I think that’s much more likely.</p>
<p>Kid had friend whose parents had condo on one of the Spring Break “party beaches”. Allowed his son and a few friends to use it during Spring Break Sr year of High School. Before they could go, their parents had to meet with him where he told both the kids and the parents the rules. Absolutely NO alcohol consumed in the condo or hallway of the condo. Everyone keeps their clothes on, especially if girls are present. No smoking in condo or hallway.</p>
<p>He was a cardiologist and said he just had too much to lose if anything happened to those kids or if any parents (invited guys or just met “guests”) got upset cause their kid got drunk, got an STD, claimed rape,etc. Said he didn’t want to lose his condo in a lawsuit or worse, his medical license. Another driving factor was his experience working emergency room and dealing with family pain caused by the carelessness of a drunk driver, overconsuming, head trauma from non-driving accidents caused by stupid behavior after a night of beer pong, etc. </p>
<p>He had a very nice condo so everyone obeyed the rules and the parents of parentally approved drinking teenagers laid the law down to them. They did drink but not in the condo and Doc had no liability for any of their behavior. Seemed to have worked out well for everyone.</p>
<p>“I have to ask if the number of accidents for any reason have gone up during this same period thus possibly artifical lower statistical number because of a bigger number overall? Could it be the increase of cars on the road and the overall increase in accidents has reduced the number of alcohol related accidents?”</p>
<p>That’s why the cohort side-by-side state studies conducted as states went to the new drinking age are so telling. Those variables could in fact be controlled (whereas, as you correctly point out, longitudinal data has to be subjected to algorithmic correction - we do KNOW how to do that, and very well, mind you, but having the side-by-side cohort studies allows the longitudinal work to act as confirmation.)</p>
<p>There HAVE been studies of households of young people who have ended up in emergency rooms due to alcohol poisonings, and those who have been involved in alcohol-related motor vehicle accidents. Overwhelmingly, they come from homes where alcohol is common, underage alcohol use is tolerated and encouraged, and age of first use is low. That’s pretty much why the case where the former non-drinker who meets his fate makes news - it is so unusual.</p>
<p>“It’s not that I disagree with some of the points here. It’s that I disagree with the demonization of something a majority of people can enjoy in moderation.”</p>
<p>I haven’t seen anyone demonizing. I just happen to think that a consistent set of community mores and norms work, and the evidence points heavily in that direction. And the converse is true, too: European studies consistently find that early drinking leads to adverse consequences.</p>
No, I don’t think so. But since I’m the mom who was shocked to hear about another mom playing beer pong with her underage son and his friends over parent’s weekend, let me tell you why:</p>
<ol>
<li><p>I’m my kids’ mom, not a drinking buddy. I value their privacy and wouldn’t intrude on a college party. I am 51 years old - my adolescence is over.</p></li>
<li><p>Even though they may choose to play drinking games, I’d much rather they didn’t and they know it - so how could I play a drinking game in my kids’ presence and retain any credibility at all?</p></li>
<li><p>Yup, I imagine my college-age kids have some experience with underage drinking. I accept that this is their choice as young people living independently, and that it’s not up to me to make the decision for them. But if they have to face any negative consequences for the decision, they won’t claim they received mixed messages from their parents.</p></li>
</ol>
<p>So they drove back to the condo after drinking? I’m not so sure the father had no legal liability either. If any of the high schoolers were under age a lawyer could make a case that as owner of the property he was supervising their vacation. I don’t know if that could be proven, but dead kids can carry a lot of weight in civil court.</p>
<p>I permit half a glass of wine at special dinners, for my own only, never with other kids present. That feels okay to me. I can’t imagine letting my high schooler go off to an unsupervised spring break at a notorious party area, though that would be okay to others. I wouldn’t call the police or child services about it though. Going off to college is not all that different from going off to spring break for many kids. I guess I just feel that few months gap between high school and college makes a difference.</p>
<p>I couldn’t agree more with your three points above.</p>
<hr>
<p>Is it any wonder that colleges have such huge problems with binge drinking? Nobody has ever told these spoiled children that they can’t drink. In fact, it is quite clear that their parents have not only told them that they can drink starting at a young age, but have supplied them alcohol.</p>
<p>The colleges are afraid to say “enough is enough” because they know these same parents are alumni contributors.</p>
<p>Hence, the routine alcohol poisoning shuttle service between campus and the local emergency room and the stunning statistics about the number of college students who have suffered a blackout.</p>
<p>We live in a country where the drinking age is 18. Parents routinely serve alcohol to seniors. I’ve had to adjust to kids drinking. Most of my son’s friends drink socially but there are always a few who are sent home early. However, his group is unusually sensible–for popular kids. Other groups of kids in other year groups and other schools are running wild in the downtown bars–at age 15.</p>
<p>The biological component is huge. I grew up in a moderate to teetotalling household but one of my brothers was drinking hard liquor at the age of 12. The rest of us never had an interest but he couldn’t keep his hands off of it. At the time, the theory was that if the parents didn’t drink, the kids would grown out of it sooner or later. Never happened. He still struggles.</p>
<p>I believe the susceptiblity to peer pressure is also genetic. One of my sons has my surreal extroverted confidence–and little susceptability to peer pressure. The other is a highly socialized introvert and one of the most impressionable people I know. It’s a component of his personality and it means that he is ten times more likely to go along with the group. </p>
<p>In the US, he once went to a huge high school party where the boyfriend of the out-of-town mother served the kids a table full of hard liquor. My son was 15 at the time. He was soooo sick when he came home. The shocker was the widespread denial that followed. A few kids told their parents and the headmaster the truth–but very very few–maybe four out of sixty. Most of the parents were happy to believe the bull story too.</p>
<p>“1. I’m my kids’ mom, not a drinking buddy. I value their privacy and wouldn’t intrude on a college party. I am 51 years old - my adolescence is over.”</p>
<p>While I might consider that a cheap shot, I won’t. I’m always a parent, but I also enjoy my kids company socially. You can be both. While I’m close in age to you, I hope my adolescense is never over. As far as an intrusion, hardly, I was invited and actually complimented by my son for my presence. He was proud that I had fun with him while still maintaining my parental pressence when so many dads were trying too hard to be the party. As I said everything in moderation.</p>
<p>“2. Even though they may choose to play drinking games, I’d much rather they didn’t and they know it - so how could I play a drinking game in my kids’ presence and retain any credibility at all?”</p>
<p>Again nice shot. It depends on what type of drinking game and what type of alcohol. It doesn’t bother me that they play a drinking game. In our day it was Hi Bob. </p>
<p>“3. Yup, I imagine they have some experience with underage drinking. I accept that this is their choice, and that it’s not up to me to make the decision for them. But if they have to face any negative consequences for the decision, they won’t claim they received mixed messages from their parents”</p>
<p>What mixed message would that be? Again, moderation in all things. Judgement and wisedom as well. Knowing when to call it a night. The negative consequences come more from overindulgence and a lack of foresight. As a parent, even during beer pong, I can show moderation, judgement and wisedom simply by enjoying myself without overdoing.</p>
<p>No, MomOFour, they did not drive anywhere. No car - had to walk or take public transportation. One of the kids parents was big time lawyer - Drs tend to know these type of people. And believe me, this Dad was much more responsible than most of the parents who owned condos at party places, at least he personally made sure the other parents knew and agreed to the rules before their son was allowed to join the group.</p>
<p>“Is it any wonder that colleges have such huge problems with binge drinking? Nobody has ever told these spoiled children that they can’t drink. In fact, it is quite clear that their parents have not only told them that they can drink starting at a young age, but have supplied them alcohol”</p>
<p>Is this the way it is across the board? I don’t think so. Is it only the spoiled children who drink? And only the parents who have supplied them booze? </p>
<p>Am I an oddball parent because I spoke with my kids about drugs and alcohol and the possible outcomes? I guess so. I don’t consider my kids spoiled, one drinks, one doesn’t…at least yet. It’s their choice, my job is to explain the outcomes pro and con to the situations they put themselves in. I hope to emparted enough knowledge and keep a line of communication open to discuss whatever situation they end up in. Sometimes it allows them to learn how to handle it better the next time. </p>
<p>It sounds like there alot of kids who simply don’t tell mom and dad what they do as not to deal with the absolutes laid out by the parents.</p>
<p>I recently spent an overnight in our local ER with a relative and watched three college girls brought in with alcohol poisoning. The RAs stayed with them and were obviously well aquainted with the staff. I couldn’t help but overhear the conversations, the RAs and ER staff both tired and frustrated with binge drinking. “Mommy and Daddy must be so proud, they’ve spent $40,000 so you can be passed out drunk in the ER” type stuff. I don’t know if kids are actually drinking more or if colleges are just more aware of the possibility of kids dying from alcohol poisoning and have a mandatory policy for RAs to call an ambulance if they see someone passed out. I was curious if they ever let parents know what’s going on or if once kids are 18 it’s all confidential. Maybe they find out when they get the bill with multiple alcohol level tests on it.</p>
<p>I think this discussion illustrates that you can’t assume all parents treat underage drinking in the same way. I think it takes a lot of nerve (and a sense of invincibility) for a parent to serve alcohol to someone else’s kid. This goes on in our school and it’s often the ‘best families’ that are involved. Or so people thought (about being the ‘best’).</p>
I don’t think so. Is it only the spoiled children who drink? And only the parents who have supplied them booze? </p>