<p>Opie, you’re not an oddball parent at all. Or if you are, then you’re not alone! I’ve talked about this in the myriad of other discussions here on CC on this very same topic. We’ve allowed our Ds to have a beer or a glass of wine with dinner since they were about 16. We’ve attempted to model responsible drinking in our household to our children and, thus far, it seems to have worked. Neither my H nor I believed that absolutely forbidding something like alcohol was the right way to go. We still don’t believe that, and our eldest is now finished college, grad school, and is out teaching. We’ve been at this a long time. </p>
<p>Most kids are going to drink. The key, in my opinion, to keeping them safe and responsible is to teach them to be responsible drinkers, if they do make the decision to drink. I’m not talking about 13 year olds here. I’m talking 17, 18, 19 year olds. Where we live now the drinking age is 19, and there are far fewer problems with alcohol poisoning and kids drinking until they’re incapacitated than we saw when we lived in the U.S. I’ve written in previous posts about the differences in experiences my two Ds see, one at NYU and the other at the University of Toronto. The difference between kids being able to go out with friends to a pub and have a few beers and pizza, watch the hockey game on the large screen tv, and enjoy an evening out vs. the gathering in someone’s dorm room, throwing back shots of liquor as fast as possible, ‘pre-drinking’, because it’s not possible for them to go out to a pub and do what the kids in Toronto are doing. </p>
<p>This is not to say that I approve of parents distributing alcohol to children other than their own. I don’t, and I’ve never done it. .</p>
<p>Binge drinking in Canada varies greatly by province, with relatively low rates in Quebec/Ontario, and extremely high rates (paralleling the highest in the U.S.) in British Columbia, Prince Edward Island, etc. Student binge drinking (at around 32%) is about 20% lower; however, binge drinking rates among young people in Ontario have risen very rapidly in the past 10 years, with 2/3rds of young adults (ages 19-24) bingeing in the previous month, higher than in the U.S.</p>
<p>I would never serve alcohol to an underaged child who was not my own, and I would be extremely, lawsuit-level angry if another parent served my underaged child alcohol. </p>
<p>I’m not a teetotaler, nor is my husband, and my 17 yo D has had a glass of wine or two and a few sips of Bailey’s Irish Cream - we weren’t at home, though, we were in Paris for the wine and Galway for the Bailey’s. But I wouldn’t - and don’t - provide alcohol for her at home.</p>
<p>There are times I wonder if anyone else who does it this way. I just don’t think absolutes work, you end up in unwinnable situations. Explaining the issue, educating the kid, helps more than just say “no”.</p>
<p>UW has tried to discourage bars from having cheap drink specials, increased the level of carding at bars and got the city to step up party patrols. Plus the usual educational stuff. I have been to WWU and NIU and there is no comparison as those places empty out on weekends. At UW they come to madison for the weekend from other schools.</p>
<p>mini, I’m not going to argue with you about the statistics you enjoy trotting out, and yes, I know, it’s what you do for a living! The reality is that I have two Ds who live this every single day, one in each country, at similar colleges. The differences in their experiences at their respective colleges are huge, as are the experiences we’ve had living in both places and seeing what actually happens, in real life, not in random surveys taken in order to provide statistics. </p>
<p>Opie, you’re welcome. Most reasonable people I know think like we do. You’re right. Absolutes rarely work.</p>
<p>I think that you can fully educate your kids about alcohol use/abuse and still tell them it is against the law to drink until you are 21. They need to know all the consequences ( legal, emotional, physical and financial) so that they can make an informed decision if they do decide to drink. I can easily see my spouse playing beer pong with son and friends… but not until they are all of legal age.</p>
<p>Mini, on this one topic I agree with you completely. The data doesn’t lie, and a few anecdotes from people who have been lucky doesn’t change the fact that it’s illegal to drink under the age of 21 in the US. I know people do allow it, and if they are comfortable with that approach, it’s not my problem. I do think it is unwise in most cases. Why do people think it’s okay to break this law, but not others? How do you explain it to your kids?</p>
<p>I think that there will always be parents who think that their kids will never get into trouble, will never misuse alcohol outside the home etc. But I think that alcohol is like tobacco in one regard – the earlier one uses the product, the more likely it is to be addictive. Why would you take the chance? </p>
<p>Finally, I know I’m not “cool” but I’m the type who would call the parents and complain. If I heard of it happening again, I’d contact the police. Kids are dying in car accidents even WITHOUT drinking – someone needs to be the adult in these situations.</p>
<p>Opie and alwaysamom, count me in on the responsibility and moderation train.</p>
<p>I would never serve alchohol to anyone else’s children, but we have offered our own kids beer and wine with meals. Sometimes they will take us up, most times, not. But, it has never been a big deal in our house. We talk at length about safety, responsibility and moderation in ALL things. </p>
<p>I have one s who drinks moderately(college soph) but is very upfront about how it creeps him out to see people **** faced. My junior s is not a drinker (although he has openly admitted to having a beer or two). I know that it hurt him socially during his junior year, many of his buds became big drinkers and dippers, both of which he is not into (thankfully). But, it does seem that, this year, he isn’t running into the weirdness about him not drinking, they all seem to be more mature about it.</p>
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<p>I totally agree, I know SO many parents who think their kids are not drinking, but they are. It is totally “head in the sand” syndrome. I would rather my kids be upfront with me than lie to my face (and potentially put themselves in a dangerous situation)</p>
Opie, I did not mean to take any shots at you, cheap or otherwise, as I was not discussing your situation. I am not going to party with my kids’ college friends because I prefer family times with my family and parties with my friends - fine. Your son invited you to a school party and was proud of having you there - great. Neither of us is following the One True Path to Parental Success.</p>
<p>I’ll stand by what I said in my second point. If I don’t want my underage kids to play drinking games, I won’t play them myself. If it’s fine with me that they play whatever it is nowadays, then it doesn’t matter whether I play too or not. </p>
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You’ve got me on the mixed message thing. If it’s fine with you that your underaged kids drink, then it’s not at all confusing to communicate exactly that. But it’s not fine with me - I would rather my own kids not drink until they are fully able to deal with any consequences, including the possible consequences imposed by their school for drinking illegally. So I’m not mixing messages, either. You and I simply have different messages.</p>
<p>Whenever this conversation comes up, I always wonder - how old should kids be when parents say to them, “The law doesn’t apply to you. The 21-year limit is for other people.” If it’s fine to bend the law by a few years, at what point isn’t it fine? 17? 14?</p>
<p>sjmom, I’m not naive enough to believe that my kids will never get into trouble, misuse alcohol outside the home, etc. I haven’t met many parents who are that naive, and the few that I have met who think that way are the ones whose approach to this issue is to absolutely forbid alcohol prior to age 21, period.</p>
<p>Like I said, I’d never allow someone else’s child to drink in my home if they were not of age. That’s an entirely different issue than allowing your own by modelling responsible drinking. If the ‘forbidding of all alcohol’ theory worked, then none of us would be having discussion after discussion here about the myriad of problems which exist surrounding alcohol consumption by underage drinkers. If all it took was for parents to say, it’s illegal, don’t do it, then mini would have a lot more time for CC. The issue, in my opinion, is whether or not it’s wise to have the drinking age at 21, rather than 18 or 19. Behavior is different in the two situations. We’ve seen it, our 4 Ds and hundreds of their friends have seen it. We have lived, and worked, on several college campuses both in the U.S. and in Canada. There’s a difference. It isn’t just ‘a few anecdotes’. The experiences and the reality of the different ways that college kids drink in each setting make it very obvious that banning alcohol until a kid is 21 changes behaviors, and not in a positive way.</p>
<p>I didn’t say anything about mini’s facts or stats. I simply stated that I personally know of many parents who think (or thought) their kids didn’t or do not drink, but they do. I have seen many a red faced parent who found out when they were called by the constable because their kid was picked up for MIP. I live in a big city, but the area I live in is Peyton Place, and no secret stays hidden for long. I know of parents who think their kids are angels (halos included) , but I have seen them driving down the street with a cigarette hanging out the window. Now, tell me how a parent doesn’t smell the smoke in the car? </p>
<p>Come on people, tell me you don’t know many a parent whose hind end is so high in the air because their head is firmly planted in the sand!!</p>
alwaysamom, my underage kids don’t have my permission to drink, but I see that as being very different from “forbidding” all alcohol until the age of 21. As a parent I have the right and the obligation to communicate my beliefs about underage drinking. I don’t condone it, I don’t encourage it, I don’t approve of it. Our lives are set up in such a way that it would be very difficult for one of my pre-college kids to drink and get away with it - and if they tried and were caught, there would be considerable negative consequences, such as loss of driving and other privileges, for an uncomfortably long time. However, it seems to me a waste of energy to “forbid” a college student anything. How would that work?</p>
<p>This doesn’t mean that we don’t discuss alcohol-related issues, nor does it mean that we expect our kids to abstain from alcohol until they are 21. I’d like them to (and they might choose abstinence independently- some do), but I don’t think they will. They’ve seen responsible use of alcohol in our home, but that responsibility begins with being of legal age. </p>
<p>btw - I’m a lot less rigid on the issue of sex in college. But then, it’s not illegal to have sex before the age of 21.</p>
<p>frazzled, I’m with you. There’s a difference between telling kids that underage drinking is illegal, and won’t be allowed in our house, and sticking our heads in the sand. It’s not that different from our position on premarital sex – we’re not there to stand guard, but we’re not going to facilitate it. </p>
<p>I think there is enough research out there to support my concerns about adolescent brain development and alcohol/drugs to say that it is clearly a risk.</p>
<p>ag54…my post was not directed primarily at you although I can see how you thought that. My point is that the data and studies Mini cites cannot be ignored just because someones experience is something different…think the elephant and the blind men…</p>
<p>I have to actually say after reading your last post we are actually very close in our discussions with our kids. It is not a wide gap, just a word here and there. You are correct “Forbid” to a young person usually is code for “I have to try that now to see why.” I too, go through the pros and cons of choice, just about any choice. However as to age I grew up in states where 18 and 19 were the norm. </p>
<p>Now I know it has helped in driving accidents by raising the age, but what if they aren’t driving?</p>
<p>I also guess my rationale is shaped by the draft age and enlistment. Maybe it’s just being a bit stubborn on my part and I admit it doesn’t have to be rational, but if the government deems it Ok for an 18 to die for the country, they should also be grown up enough to have a beer. It bothers me that we can put a gun in a kid’s hand, teach him to kill, but to drink a beer is bad? As I said it doesn’t have to make sense, but it does to me. Maybe we shouldn’t allow children to enlist until 21 as well.</p>
<p>Opie…now you are talking. 18 year old kids still believe they are invincible…that death will not come knocking on their door…by 21 they have matured enough to have at least a clue.This is probably why 18 year olds make good soldiers. I am amazed at the amount of personal growth between age eighteen and twenty one.</p>
<p>This may be a little off-topic, but it is mind boggling to me that, in many states where the drinking age is 21, the minimum age to be a BARTENDER is 18! How can someone be considered responsible enough to monitor other people’s drinking and to serve alcohol but not to drink it themself??? I found out about this because my neighbor’s college-age (way under 21) daugher was a bartender for a summer job! Unbelievable!</p>
The issue, in my opinion, is whether or not it’s wise to have the drinking age at 21, rather than 18 or 19. Behavior is different in the two situations. We’ve seen it, our 4 Ds and hundreds of their friends have seen it. We have lived, and worked, on several college campuses both in the U.S. and in Canada. There’s a difference. It isn’t just ‘a few anecdotes’. The experiences and the reality of the different ways that college kids drink in each setting make it very obvious that banning alcohol until a kid is 21 changes behaviors, and not in a positive way.</p>