<p>sax, I didn’t say that mini’s stats ‘should be ignored’, but then neither should they be taken as universal truth. The point which I was attempting to make is that kids in both the U.S. and in Canada drink (I’m talking college kids here), but that they drink differently. The behaviors are different and I honestly believe, over three decades of experience of living and/or working (or both) on college campuses, that those behaviors are different due largely to the different legal drinking age laws. If we’re going to tie the legal ability to drink to brain development, especially impulse control, then it should be raised, especially for boys. 
There’s no perfect solution here, that may be the only obvious part of this discussion.</p>
<p>Sax, I agree that the stats presented cannot be ignored. But, I also see that stats presented will not keep a child from drinking. Neither will forbidding them (unless they never leave the house without the parent handcuffed to them), same thing with underage sex. I have told my kids the dangers, and the legality of the situation, not only of drinking underage, but of drugs as well. </p>
<p>I have also told them that my brother died by going through the windshield of a drunk 17 year old driver’s car (the drinking age was 18 back then), and recently my college age s had a friend from high school die from drinking, passing out and never waking. </p>
<p>I have given them and their friends the cards that have the symptoms of alcohol poisoning, and I hope that after they smirked at me, they actually read them and internalized it. I also have told them that under any circumstance I will help them if they find that they are unable to drive or feel unsafe with someone they are with. I would much rather get the phone call that they are staying at someone’s house because they don’t feel that they can drive, or I would rather get out of bed and go pick them up if they don’t want to ride with somebody they don’t feel comfortable with. I would hate for them to think that I would “kill” them if I found out they were drinking, so they attempt to drive home and cover. I personally know of two senior boys a few years ago who did that - they knew their parents would be irate that they drank, so they drove - straight into a tree, killing both of them. That, I do not want. And, I may be totally misguided, but I think by having completely open communication with my kids, there is a less likely chance of that happening.</p>
<p>I hope nobody mistook what I’ve cited as suggesting that I believe parents should “forbid” their kids from drinking. On the contrary, what I have been trying to suggest (and document) is that changing community mores and norms works, almost regardless of what parents do. And when I say “works”, I mean on a population-wide basis, not for any particular youth. To be quite specific, while I have no strong opinion about whether one should allow your 16-year-old to have a glass of wine with you at dinner (I do), I have very strong opinions about households in the community allowing group youth alcohol consumption in their homes. And I also have strong opinions that parental advice must be tailored to a child’s specific genetic history. There are certain kids who certainly should NOT be welcomed to have a drink of wine with dinner at age 16; the longer term risks are simply too high, and, moreover, the teachable moment is lost. I am watching data at my alma mater (and at Duke) where 15% or more (higher for white males) of the student population IS going to grow up to become alcoholics at some point in the next 20 years, if they aren’t already, and that is simply too high a social and family cost to ignore.</p>
<p>And, the evidence suggests, approaches to change community mores and norms work on college campuses as well. But there are an awful lot of college administrations (including my alma mater) that don’t seem to care much about long-term educational and health outcomes of their students when it comes to alcohol, and usually don’t until someone dies (if then).</p>
<p>I may have been labelled as the “forbidder”, so I want to clarify. We have forbidden underage drinking as a ROUTINE in our home, and we would never give alcohol to other peoples’ kids. That’s not to say our kids have never tasted alcohol, they have and didn’t like it much. We from time to time will offer them wine or champagne on very special occasions, they typically turn us down. I have encouraged my 19 year old who will be in Paris for 10 weeks this spring to have an occasional glass of wine - seems a shame to be in France and not have at least one nice dinner with Bordeaux, but she may not take me up on it, she doesn’t like wine.
What we did do was reinforce the lessons they get at school about alcohol poisoning and drunk driving. We also keep very close tabs on their whereabouts. Parties were never forbidden, but the drinking starts early here, and the 9th and 10th graders are involved in events where juniors and seniors are present drinking. By the time my older child was driving, she was so far out of the loop, that we did not have to worry - we pretty much knew where she was all the time, and who her friends were and what they were doing. Son is a little more social, but he is cutting himself out of the heavy drinking scene, and, in the end, I think that we will pretty much know where he is all the time.
I may have my head in the sand, but we really do keep up with them all the time - and I just don’t care about college, I guess I think that it is too late by then.</p>
<p>MotherOfTwo, at the age of eighteen someone is allowed to touch and serve alcohol. This means that eighteen year olds can handle wine at a check-out counter, serve a drink as a waitress/waiter, and bartend.</p>
<p>Since this thread is already off-topic, I’m kind of curious about something. Do any of you have kids who you suspect have or will develop drinking problems? Everyone, it seems, says that their kids don’t drink or drink a glass of wine socially or something like that. What about the kids who drink a lot? I don’t especially like putting myself out there for debate, but it’s my own situation I’m curious about. As some of you will know from the thread about drinking a couple of weeks ago, I’m underage, and I drink. Every time I do, it becomes clearer that I am high-risk for developing an alcohol problem. I do not attend a party-school, I am not depressed, and I am a confident person not suspectable to peer pressure. My parents did not let me drink at home, and I did not drink in high school. Why do some of us, some students, drink more? It’s genetic, I would guess. But then what do you do about it? I don’t think you can blame it on the parents or the school or even very much on the student–at least not at first. Though Mini will have the data, given the way I feel about drinking and how I drink, I would guess that my drinking would “develop” at 21 the same way it is now. My meaning is that just telling your kid not to drink until 21 won’t solve the problem. You can tell your son/daughter to drink socially, but what does that mean exactly? And how do people with the propensity to drink learn how to drink socially? My question is, you all make it sound so easy to get your kids not to drink or over-drink, but my parents did everything they were “supposed to” and yet here I am. Why? And what do you do about it?</p>
<p>For some people, there just is no such thing as social drinking.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>They don’t. </p>
<p>Instead, they choose (consciously or otherwise) either to abstain or to have problems with alcohol.</p>
<p>There are those who disagree with what I just said, but I would still argue that the safest course of action for those with the propensity to drink is not to drink at all. </p>
<p>I come from a family where lots of people have had drinking problems. I am extremely doubtful that any of us could ever be successful moderate drinkers. Successful abstainers, yes. But not successful moderate drinkers.</p>
<p>corranged, I don’t know what makes the difference. My brother and myself were raised by total abstainers. Our parents made clear why they didn’t approve of alcohol–car accidents, poor decisions under the influence, waste of money, etc. I went to college and had the very rare beer (that I never really liked) and my brother went to same school and partied hard. What was the difference? Same upbringing, same high school, same college, only 3 years difference in age.</p>
<p>I learned to socially drink after hugging the toilet a few too many times. I eventually wized up to the fact that a 105 pound girl cannot drink too much or else she is NOT going to have fun for much of the night. This happened sometime during college. My family, luckily, has not had any alcoholism or addictive tendencies, and keeping on this path of moderation has not been an issue.</p>
<p>See, I’ve never been sick drinking. My sister doesn’t get sick, either. I’ve done no research on the subject at all, but that’s why it seems genetic to me. On Friday night I was drinking with one of my male friends (who has the same level of drinking experience that I have, ate dinner, and is about the same size as me), and we had all of our drinks together except that I had a double shot that he skipped. I was definitely drunk, but I felt fine enough and after a couple of hours headed home. He couldn’t walk straight and started vomiting later that night. (I didn’t just leave him on his own, by the way. He was with friends in his dorm, while I went back to my own.) I was perfectly fine the next day, while he was so hungover he stayed mostly in bed. The entire drinking experience for me seems to be different than for other people.</p>
<p>corranged, </p>
<p>Let me ask you this, when you do get a chance to drink, do you drink in a hurry?</p>
<p>It depends. I tend to like some quick drinks (i.e. shots) in the beginning to get buzzed, but I don’t always do that. I get drunk slower than most of my friends, so I drink faster if I find myself sober while they are all drunk. I don’t hurry up and drink whatever I have in my hand, though. I’ll nurse a beer or a mixed drink for a while, longer than most people seem to. It really changes on the situation, but if I’m not aiming to get drunk, I drink slower than most. If I want to be drunk or catch up with my friends, I’ll take some shots and then make myself a pretty heavily alcoholic mixed drink. I don’t down beers or other drinks, though. Why?</p>
<p>Usually what will happen first is that you will like the taste, and crave more of it. Then, you will find that to get the same impact, you require more of it. (or, in the terms you put it, it would take more and more to get you “sick” - tolerance). Then, later, you find yourself feeling queasy or uneasy when you haven’t had a drink (withdrawal).</p>
<p>This is the usual progression of the disease. I had a roommate in college who became an alcoholic. He wasn’t much of a party drinker. Just a shot (vodka straight up) in the morning; 5-6 or so at night. You would very rarely see him “drunk”, mostly just “happy”.</p>
<p>Well, I’ve never felt any withdrawal, but yeah, the rest kind of sounds like me. I love vodka, and I really crave it, especially if I haven’t had any in a few days. I’ve thought ahead to times when I’ll be away from school and won’t be able to drink. I’ve noticed lately, too, that even if the physical affects of drinking kick in pretty early (“buzzed” feeling), it’s hard to get myself to feel drunk, if I can get there at all. But I don’t have a problem with any of this. Intellectually I know that it’s not healthy, but I like drinking. It’s hard because I know I should probably try to cut back or stop, and my friends have told me that, but I’m conflicted because I just don’t want to. Sorry, I didn’t mean to take up this thread or anything.</p>
<p>If you have two of the first three symptoms as you describe, and your friends have told you to stop or cut back, and you think about drinking or the lack of opportunity to do so, you may have 4 of the 8 diagnostics for a diagnosis of alcohol dependence, and may qualify as alcohol dependent according to the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of the American Psychiatric Association. Regardless, I would urge you to seek counseling at school.</p>
<p>“It’s hard because I know I should probably try to cut back or stop, and my friends have told me that, but I’m conflicted because I just don’t want to. Sorry, I didn’t mean to take up this thread or anything.”</p>
<p>Don’t be sorry about taking up the thread. I think you know you need to stop. It’s not easy, but good luck and do seek help.</p>
<p>corranged, you might want to contact your college’s health center and see what’s available in terms of alcohol education or alcohol counseling programs. Some colleges have very good programs on this topic. Besides, you’re already paying for these services, whether or not you use them. You may as well use them and see what you can learn about your particular situation.</p>
<p>
corranged: </p>
<p>You’re already part way there and ahead of some other student-posters in that you already recognize the condition and a situation getting away from you. Now’s a good time to carry the acknowledgement to the next step and seek help or at least try to truly refrain for a period of time to at least prove to yourself that you can. Changing habits and finding other means of entertainment and non-drinking friends can help.</p>
<p>Colleges have different types of alcohol counseling depending on what you are looking for. Check out your schools website and see what they offer. All of the counseling should be confidential, too. It’s a huge step to believe that something may not be quite right. Good for you.</p>
<p>Wow. Thanks for all those responses. My school does have alcohol counseling available. I was planning on going to the student health center to get something checked out sometime soon. Maybe I’ll pick up a brochure or something, or maybe the doctor will ask me about it. The form we fill out first asks how many drinks you normally have in a week. I left it blank last time because I couldn’t count them all… I guess that should have been a red flag. Anyway, I will think about it all. I like to drink a lot, and even though the first time I was ever drunk was just a month and a half ago, I can’t really see not drinking. It’s the thing I like most, really. OK, that sounds pretty bad. …I’ll think about it. Thanks.</p>