I often wonder if there’s way to bring gun people and no gun people together. Maybe no-gun people could see gun people’s position a bit instaed of demonizing them using the worst possible scenario.
@igloo:
Not a gap, I pointed out the circumstances you would find in the club when the guy started shooting, that it was crowded with people, that it would be dark, and that when all hell breaks loose it would be utter chaos. This isn’t a bank robbery in an open space in daylight where the robbers are wearing masks, in the circumstances you would find at a night club it is likely that it would be next to impossible to see who the shooter is all that clearly. Then, too, given that the people carrying likely are not exactly marksmen (with handguns, even cops, who are trained, often take like 40 shots to bring down a perp in a gunfight), you think they so easily would take the guy down?
BTW, the cop might have been alone, but he confronted the guy outside the club when he likely would have had a clearer shot than inside, andhe was trained, and he couldn’t take the guy down, because the difference in firepower was huge. The cop probably had a 9mm, the shooter had a weapon that might have been one step below a fully automatic military weapon, and the same would apply if people were armed inside.
^ It would be chaos and, even if you wanted to tackle the guy, you’d have to be able to locate him first.
Al Qaeda and Daesh (IS/ISIS/ISIL) are rivals / enemies. Both are also enemies of Shia Muslims, and Hezbollah is a Shia group.
There is a snapchat taken by a woman on the dance floor when the shooting started inside. It is dark and completely chaotic and in the few seconds it takes people to even realize what is happening, many people can (and did) die. The woman did not live. I think I found it on the NY Times web site.
It won’t be immediate but how long would it take tp spot someone firing off an automatic? Don’t they flash lik ein the movie?
The doctors are giving their accounts of that night and it is horrifying. They’re talking about people literally just being dumped off by the truckloads and laying in the hallways because there just wasn’t enough places to put them. Because they weren’t being brought by EMS, they had no idea what to expect and had no advanced notice of what was going on so they had to triage like they were on the battlefield.
As someone who has spent way more time in the ER than I care to admit, I know those doctors and nurses and other medical staff are accustomed to seeing some pretty horrific things but not like this.
Yeah, you could probably see the muzzle flash if you were looking for it and it was visible to you. Still, if he’s moving and it’s dark, when he’s not firing, you’re guessing.
That’s why I’m starting to think that this is less a case of real terrorism, and more a case of a deeply disturbed individual latching onto an angry ideology, combined with self-loathing and a killing machine.
》》 regimes in the Middle East who are publicly saying how shocked they are at what happened, decrying it, privately are nodding their heads and basically saying “good”, the same way I would bet that many on the hard right in this country are publicly saying the right things.《《
I would guess many people on the far right are horrified and disapproving. After all, us right-wingers value freedom and don’t like US citizens being attacked by a foreign and disgusting ideology. It is a difficult problem to solve, and I recognize that. But banning the tools will not get rid of the anti-American ideology.
Igloo, I would guess you might be able to spot the shooter if you are tall enough and close enough. If you spot the gun from 3 people back, do you shoot? Keep in mind the place is packed and now people are running or trying to escape in a chaotic environment. Do you shoot? How do you guarantee a clear shot and a trigger hand not jostled by the crowd?
We cannot possibly fetter out which aspects of this mans thinking and beliefs led him to this horrific act.
People are much too complicated for us to do this. He called 911 and spoke of ISIS. It was obviously part of his thinking.
It was everything…his sexuality, his hate, his beliefs, his personality, his upbringing etc.
Not yet maybe. At some point I’d think the gunman will be isolated. People will be running away from him. Let’s assume not one 9 mm but 50 9 mm’s were present. Wouldn’t that change the dynamics? Wouldn’t that inhibit the gun man somewhat? Say before he gets to 50 people?
What do you make of the fact that he also spoke of Hezbollah and others which are rivals and enemies of ISIS? Not just in the 911 call, but in conversations with the FBI several years ago.
50 armed drunk people in a packed, dark, loud night club with free flowing alcohol is a good idea to prevent gun violence?
We already know too many drunk people can’t manage to drive a car or keep themselves from raping another person when drunk but they can shoot bad guys (and only bad guys)?
hayden, are you talking about a situation where armed civilians were there?
@LasMa It doesn’t matter. As much as we want to put everything into neat little piles we cannot. We will never know.
He spoke of those things. They were on his mind. They were a part of his thinking but we will, never ever know what part they played in his mind. What we know is that he did call 911 and speak of ISIS. It was obviously important to him to do that.
I have a relative who spouts anti LGBT rhetoric (uses Christianity as the rationale), frequently on facebook. This relative also happens to be a psychologist and family therapist. For real.
Only in America do people think more guns are the answer. Even better, more guns in an environment that has copious amounts of alcohol and young people.
Why does everyone think they’d be like James Bond in that situation? You’ve had a couple drinks, are dancing with friends, then bam someone starts shooting. It’s dark, you think you see the gunman, so you draw your weapon. You are now full of adrenalin and start shooting. What are the odds that you don’t shoot an innocent? I’d say pretty low. What are the odds you actually shoot the gunman armed with an AR-15? I’d say even lower.
Even trained police officers and military personnel wouldn’t shoot in that scenario. They’d take cover, which is exactly what the off duty cop did. He wasn’t going to risk killing an innocent person.
Lastly, in these situations, the assailant has planned ahead enough to have body armor, so he now has an even greater advantage over you and your hand gun.
But sure, pull a Geraldo and blame the victims for not rushing the armed gunman.
@LasMa,
The officials are apparently combing through his computer and cell phone. There may be more information surfacing that may better help address your question.