I am in shock-orlando terror attack

@ LasMa sadly he’s not the only extremist pastor.
Kevin Swanson… http://www.advocate.com/religion/2015/11/24/kill-gays-preacher-kevin-swanson-gods-his-side
Steven Anderson…
http://www.phoenixnewtimes.com/news/tempe-pastor-hails-orlando-massacre-for-leaving-50-less-pedophiles-in-this-world-video-8372346
Charles Worthey…
http://articles.latimes.com/2012/may/22/nation/la-na-nn-pastor-wants-to-put-gays-lesbians-behind-electrified-fence-20120522
George Jiminez…
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/acts-of-faith/wp/2016/06/14/pastor-refuses-to-mourn-orlando-victims-the-tragedy-is-that-more-of-them-didnt-die/

As I said on a previous thread it feels like silent homophobia when these so called faith leaders are not challenged by the masses.
I truly believe that this attack occurred due to our current fear and misunderstanding that have fostered due to such hurtful speech.

@carolinamom2boys

No – maybe only the worst confirmed cases. I’m just brainstorming ideas for increased security. Obviously another thing that would help would be to limit access to firearms and other weapons, but that’s been mentioned (and espoused) ad nauseam already.

I know it sounds wrong, and I don’t like it either, but sometimes we have to at least consider lesser evils to prevent much larger ones, while we work to obliterate the (other) causes of these acts.

It would be nice if we lived in a world without hate or fear or the prejudice they inspire – and we should always work to decrease those things, starting in our homes – but unfortunately, that, at this point, is not practical. It’s not just going to go away.

@sylvan8798 I’m certain that you’re right, but an ISIS true believer – a soldier eager to fight and die for the ISIS cause – would have known the difference.

Even if it’s not medically indicated?

And how would you enforce it?

Define “them.” I need to know exactly what combination of words, behaviors, opinions, religious practices, ethnicities, and/or internet searches would earn me involuntary “mood stabilization.”

Google Frances Farmer.

We’ll have to disagree @prezbucky This man was investigated heavily for 10 months and determined not to be an imminent threat. This was a terrible , unthinkable event , but placing someone on mild altering medications with potentially serious side effects because they may have a rage episode does not help in solving the problem , it creates new ones. What happens if they don’t take their medication. What then, frontal lobotomies? They’ve tried that before , it doesn’t work. While people feel better to think that this man is " crazy" or " mentally ill" , it has not been confirmed. It is not fair to the thousands of mentally ill people to assume that he had an illness or that it’s OK to medicate people who don’t need it.

Even in my very pro-gun state, the general public is not allowed to carry guns in bars. For good reason, I think. And the fact that you can’t do it here pretty much means that even many pro-gun people think guns and alcohol are a bad combination.

He may have been a gay man but he was infected with Islamist ideology. He watched the videos of Al-Alwaki, the same terrorist who inspired (if that is the right word) the Ft. Hood shooter. He was familiar with the target because he went there because he was gay, but his decision to commit murder was based on radical Islamist ideology.

The FBI has some explaining to do. They were following the Ft. Hood shooter. He was on their radar. The Tsarnaev brother was on their radar. And now this guy. They interviewed his co-workers who told the FBI of his terror rantings and the co-workers warnings were dismissed. Why? Even as a kid he cheered the 9/11 attack. Read the Washington Post this morning, it’s there.

But even if the FBI knew he was likely to commit murder, what then? Follow him 24/7?. He hadn’t done anything wrong yet to arrest him. His First, Second, Fifth Amendment rights were still in place.

I do think the wife needs to be charged with conspiracy. She knew enough of his plans to try and talk him out of it, but apparently went no further and did not contact police, FBI or anyone else. I doubt the maniacs can be stopped, but if those who know the maniacs and their plans are in fear of being prosecuted, then more of them will come forward before the atrocities.

Well let’s see, most mass shootings are done by young men. Do we put all young men on mood stabilizers? We’d have to dope them into a near comatose state to truly prevent shootings.

Seems legit.

Just got back from work. TV on and wondering what will be for lunch. It seems the second wife is finally cooperating and perhaps she can shed some light on the shooter’s behavior, motive, accomplices, if any, etc.

They are about to report it. The teaser was that she drove him to the Pulse Nightclub a few times. That is all they said. What? She drove her husband and the father of her 3-year old son to a gay bar so he could drink and party???

Now they are saying she tried to talk him out of doing anything violent and that she drove him to other gay clubs in Orlando. He also cased Disney. The FBI is looking into her “actions” as far as driving him around but apparently she knew he might be plotting something violent. They just showed her picture with him and the baby and frankly she looks like the nicest mom you can imagine. I do not hate her. She is a victim too. So is the child.

The dad is now being interviewed about the latest news about his son visiting gay bars alone.

There are not easy answers for preventing those capable of this kind of violence short of a level of gun control and/or massive infringements of civil rights that are not politically tenable in this country.

I had a person say to my face once, “I could kill everyone in this house and don’t think I couldn’t do it.” I believe him. I can do NOTHING to stop him from buying guns. NOTHING. And yes, I tried.

This is why I get so angry when people blame the Muslim community or family members or whoever is handy for not turning in killers before the fact. Often people have tried.

Things have to change.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/orlando-nightclub-massacre/omar-mateen-s-wife-tried-talk-him-out-orlando-attack-n592051

The wife needs to be charged. She knew he was planning at attack. She drove him to the club to ‘scope it out’. She saw him buy the gun. She should not be able to hide behind her status as his wife, her pretty face or being a woman.

Supposedly the guy was on some sort of watch list, but I don’t know what that means (he was not on the main terror watch list, though). Even if they had put him on the terrorist no fly list and such, it wouldn’t have stopped him from buying guns legally and apparently he might have been an angry person but that isn’t a crime.

In terms of whether having armed people in the club would have helped, I think the problem is a lot of people have perceptions, based on tv and movies, about how easy it is to be the hero pulling a gun and shooting the bad guy.

Even on a shooting range, handguns are not that accurate, they love to show people shooting and hitting a target dead center, but handguns are not that accurate. I always shake my head when the cops kill some perp, and people are yelling “why didn’t you shoot the weapon out of their hand”, as if TV and movies were real.

Then, think about this one. When you are in the middle of something like that, it is akin to being in a combat situation. Soldiers and to a certain extent cops (SWAT teams especially), spend a lot of time trying to become inured to such situations, basic training and combat simulations are used to try and get them ready for what really happens…and even in that case it doesn’t help, and in a fitting parallel a lot of casualties, as many as 20% (least it was in WWII when my dad fought) were friendly fire.

Members of Navy seal team six spend a lot of time in simulations of for example hostage situations, under tense circumstances, and in a given year, at least at one point, that one team used more ammo then the entire marine corps in training

Now think about Joe/Jane Blow, who bought a gun pretty much by having a background check and signing his name and paying for it, maybe he went to a range once in a while to shoot. Person is out, is having a couple of drinks, is in the middle of a dark, noisy night club, and suddenly all hell breaks lose. The SWAT teams guys who went in there and got the bad guy knew they were going in there, and had training, but our friend? You see people dying, blood flying, people are screaming and yelling, and your adrenalin level goes through the roof, and at that point you are depending, not on cold logic and thinking, but on fear and adrenalin and whatnot. People in the military are trained that when this happens, that they can function, and they operate on instinct and training and muscle memory in how to act…but Joe/Jane Blow? They are going to be hopped up on adrenalin, heart pumping, scared, overwhelmed, and they are calmly going to pull out their weapon, discern friend from foe in the middle of a dark chaos, find the bad guy (who is spraying bullets all over the place, and those bullets travel, the muzzle velocity on an AR15 I hazard a guess is probably 2000 ft/sec at least), and take him out?

And if we have 50 people like that, freaked out, scared, perhaps a bit drunk, you think they are going to act like a cool, rational group of people hunting down the bad guy?

In both cases, what is more likely is the person either will never draw their weapon and try to flee, or will likely start shooting at shadows, and will end up hurting and killing innocents before they even got near the bad guy. Read up sometime on the simulations that cops use for hostage situations (and these days anti terrorist) and find out just how often they shoot the wrong person. In training for hostage situations and the like, Seals wash out (or they used to, according to Chuck Fararr) if they hit an innocent…and even with all their training, it happens.

The biggest problem with people carrying as a deterrent is that they haven’t been trained, and training is not just about how many times you hit a bullseye on a range, ti is about being able to function with the noise and chaos that surrounds situations like this. Another factor is that people without that kind of training tend to hesitate, because they are likely decent people and have the instinct that is another person they are shooting it, the military and such spend a lot of times figuratively beating that out of recruits, to forget the other person is human that they are attempting to take out.

Emilybee is on to something:

“I doubted this was Islamic terrorism from the get go and I think all the stuff coming out about him today points to it being simply a cover for the real reason he committed mass murder and why he choose Pulse.”

And the latest news also gives logic to the possibility that the ISIS claim of responsibility for Mateen’s actions is bogus. Do we expect any statement from ISIS that their soldier in Orlando was gay? I would say no.

I think it’s interesting that the dad is so adamant that his son was a terrorist. It almost makes me wonder whether his dad would rather he be a terrorist than gay.

He called 911 and said he was ISIS. What more do you need? Why try and psychoanalyze him into not being ISIS? Denial.

^^ Maybe I’m just being cynical, but I absolutely think his dad would prefer that Mateen was a terrorist and not a gay man. After all, didn’t he say ““God himself will punish those involved in homosexuality – this is not for the servants’ of God”?

Yes, Noor Zahi Salman being present when Omar Mateen bought the weapons and then driving Omar Mateen to Pulse sure seems suspicious. I never believed Katherine Tsarnaev was innocent of all knowledge of her terrorist husband’s activities, either.

I think it was a bit of both. It’s more and more likely that he was a closeted gay man. Imagine growing up in a first generation household where being gay was out of the question. Of being a member of a religion that preached against homosexuality. Add to this the amount of anti-Western propaganda he saw, and it creates a volatile situation at best. The immense self hate he must have felt is overwhelming just to think about. That internalized hate then gets redirected at the culture at large. How many religious people have talked about the “Gay agenda”? He then blames external forces on being born gay.

He may have been trying to prove to everyone, ISIS, his family, his god that he really wasn’t a gay man, because what gay man would should up a gay club?

And yes, I won’t be surprised if his current wife isn’t eventually charged, because damn.