OP- I’m in your camp (unlike some of the other posters) but not because I agree with a lot of the somewhat demeaning and narrow minded things you’ve posted. So without this being an endorsement of your POV, I do have some practical tips on how to get your wife and stepson to keep an open mind.
1- Stop pushing.
2- Sit down for a two person chat (you and stepson) where the goal is to LISTEN to each other, not to argue, not to contradict. But just to listen.
3- Sit down with your wife and do the same.
4- Draw up a “rules of the road” list to help guide all of you over this process. Without it- your family dynamic will be infinitely more complicated then just “stepson doesn’t listen, wife is naive”. You could do some serious damage here.
5- Ask your stepson to come up with a college list which is more than one college (the local one) and your alma mater. And commit to helping him explore, research, visit, pay for- the appropriate combination thereof-- of his final choice if it meets the stated criteria from number 2.
6- Make a family pact that you are all going to work harder to listen to each other going forward- regardless of the topic and regardless of who is signing the check.
enlist whichever professionals you need to in order to accomplish 1-6. Guidance counselor, private college counselor, family therapist, whatever it takes.
I know Harvard grads working the counter at Fed-ex Kinko’s, and graduates of some obscure college nobody has ever heard of who are running huge and lucrative divisions of Fortune 50 companies. So I don’t believe that attending the local college dooms anyone to a “modest career” (there are too many other factors- the biggest being work ethic) nor do I believe that attending a top 15 college guarantees anything (back to that work ethic).
If this process teaches you nothing other than the fact that your step son is a human being with his own needs, ambitions, need to fail /or need to succeed on his own terms, than that’s a positive thing. AND if you can get him to open his mind about your alma mater AND open yours on different paths to success- that’s victory.
Good luck to you.
For our edification and curiosity (since we are all dying to know but most are too polite to ask) why did you marry a woman for whom you have so little respect???
Environment is important. In the right environment, OP should do better than if forced into an environment that clashes with his self image. I cannot emphasize enough how important this is at one of the two T-15 schools that I listed above.
I agree with this advice. Alma mater, the big R1, and more should be on the list.
Unless the juice to get into the alma mater is only available ED. Then a decision has to be made.
You could refuse to pay for any college but your own, then your kid could come here to CC and start yet another “I hate my [insert relative paying for college]” thread
The OP came here locking for confirmation of his point of view. For the most part he has not received it and the few who support him offer qualified support of his goal but not his attitude and approach. This should give the OP something to think about.
OP - Have you considered pulling in a private college counselor? Sounds like it might be beneficial in this situation.
From your description of your stepson, do you think he has the maturity to go away to a T15? He might benefit from staying closer to home and then transferring.
An LAC isn’t for everyone. I helped my nephew apply to colleges (a mix of universities and LACs). He ended up at a small LAC, about 2200 students. He was pretty miserable. He is a smart kid but did not have the kind of high school education that would allow him to thrive at writing-intensive LAC. This led to depression which led to a medical leave. I’m not sure he will be returning.
I get it. A husband and wife could have vastly different areas of expertise. H could be a college prof and W could have never gone to college and yet own an incredibly successful service business and could be substantially outearning H. When it comes to college admissions, I’d imagine H would be incredibly frustrated if W and S don’t listen to him. S could be saying that mom made it without any college, so why do I need to go to prestigious U? This probably isn’t OP’s scenario, but I’m not going to assume that he looks down upon his W generally based on a couple of posts made out of frustration.
I also get how if you’re talking the difference between, say Harvard and University of South Alabama. It’s hard to argue that the kid shouldn’t apply to Harvard because the number of connections the kid can make (if he’s willing!) and opportunities available to him (if he chooses to engage!) will be much better at Harvard. Doesn’t mean he can’t make it from University of South Alabama, but I think he’d have to work a heck of a lot harder to get to the same place if he went to U South Alabama instead of Harvard.
There are many, many reasons for why S might be dismissing this opportunity. Some that come to mind are S doesn’t have confidence, S doesn’t see the benefit, or S is worried that if he goes there he will end up in a job that will require him to work all the time and he doesn’t want that track for himself. I agree with the other posters who say that your relationships are the most important thing, and you have to be careful not to push too hard even though you think they are crazy to turn their backs on this opportunity. And also, if you push and S goes there, unless he buys into it and makes the connections and takes advantage of what the school has to offer, he won’t get the benefits of your alma mater. As others have said, you all really need to sit down and listen, and that can be really, really hard both for you to actually listen when your point seems so obvious, and for your kid to be able to enunciate what’s going on in his head. Even though you think S’ feelings are incorrect, his feelings are still his and you need to validate that. It can sometimes take a lot of conversations to figure out what his assumptions and feelings are. And it’s so very tempting once he gives one reason to jump all over that and explain why his assumption is wrong. You can’t do that - there are probably 10 other reasons behind that and he just isn’t able to enunciate them all yet. Once you find out what the real reasons are, you can work together as a family on it. For example, if he thinks he isn’t smart enough, then a good conversation with his teachers or GC can be helpful because he needs to hear from others that he can do this. And also, if he has confidence issues, this is a great time for him to work on them. Lastly, various posters suggested counseling. This could be very helpful in your situation where it just doesn’t make sense that your W and S are digging in their heels for something that seems so obvious to you. The counselor can create an environment to help your S be able to enunciate his feelings and prevent you from jumping in too early with your opinion (I know I’d be chomping at the bit). And, I think this issue is important enough and the timing in your S’ life is right, so that counseling could help ensure that he’s on the right track for his future, and that as S matures and his relationship with you inevitably changes that you and he have a good framework for communicating with each other. I’m not saying this is necessary at all, just saying that this could be a very helpful tool to you and the timing is right. Once the kids leave the house your opportunities for change are much less.
Based on these numbers, which are similar to other top 15 private universities or LACs, the SES diversity is heavily skewed upward, with the half not getting FA being from the top 3% or so. The other half is moderately biased toward the upper half of the rest (the 30% with FA but not Pell).
But then perhaps that is desired by the OP who seemingly wants the stepson to associate with well connected scions of wealth and influence as a boost to future career prospects. However, it looks like the stepson is less interested in such social circles.
However, different state flagships vary in their SES diversity. Some have even lower Pell (lower half SES) percentages, though they may also have lower percentages of the scions of the top end of the SES range – i.e. less SES diverse in terms of being mostly be upper half SES excluding the top end.
It sounds like your wife and stepson are not putting much thought or research into the college application process, and as frustrating as that is, its his choice. Not sure, other than if you are $$$$$$$$$$$$$ and routinely donate $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ or are head of admissions at the school or something, how you feel you “can get him in”. Besides, from his lack of enthusiasm, it sounds like he could easily sabotage that.
Where I live (which does have a full week off/fall break in 2 weeks, btw, @thumper1 ) many who can easily afford to attend a T20 schools and even if they could get in, much prefer the flagship state U. Its their choice. Bugs me when they think that getting a new car instead of an elite education is a consideration (which it is for some) , or that attending college with their HS friends is important (at a huge school they rarely see them… ) but you can’t rationalize irrational thinking. If I were you I’d invite them to visit your alma mater, or let it go. Don’t pressure them with requiring reasoned responses to your queries.
As an aside, I’ve done alum interviews for my alma mater (a top 20 LAC) and its painfully cheaar when a student knows nothing about the school. Given that now my school (and others) do consider alum interviews as part of the application consideration, coming across as uninformed or uninterested can surely backfire.
I think the advice to try to get some open and meaningful communication is very sound. Wish I knew how to tell you to do that. But there could very well be a reason that they are digging in. Might be the same reason for both of them, might be different. And it might be a good reason, and it might not. But trying to get it out in the open is probably your best bet to address it.
My S I talked about above actually had a very good reason for the choice he made beyond following the girl. He finally told me that reason the night before he moved in the college. Not sure why it took that long for him to tell me the true reason, although he knew I was disappointed in his choice so that could have been a factor.
FYI, I understood his reasoning but I still think it was a bad choice. It would have been helpful for both of us to have an honest discussion about it before the decision had already been made.
My husband is a car guru. Loves anything mechanical.
I have zero interest-- I like something which gets me where I need to go and doesn’t need constant drop off’s at a repair shop, or husband tinkering in the driveway. And I’m cheap. And I don’t like change- so I like to drive a car for a really long time.
We’ve learned to compromise. I respect his knowledge and interest in the topic, and when he tells me that I won’t be happy with XYZ car which a friend of mine just leased and is raving about, I trust that he’s saying it based on facts and not fiction/appearances/bias. And similarly- when I tell him that I don’t want to test drive ABC car for whatever reason, he backs down.
I’ve been driving Honda’s for 30+ years-- I don’t keep them 12 years like I would like, but I do keep them 8 years which makes HIM happy (claiming that newer cars are safer, more fuel efficient, have better repair records). They also make ME happy because they are cheap to own and by some miracle, are always worth more at trade-in then I expect.
Obviously a college education is not a car. But I suspect if everyone takes off their talking hats and starts wearing their listening hats, they’ll figure out what’s important to the stepson, what’s not important, what he’s looking for out of his college experience, where he’s prepared to compromise and where not… and then take it from there.
But finding out what stepson wants in a college is a good first step.
But isn’t it our job as parents to point out to our kids when they are thinking irrationally and get them to focus on what is in their best interest? In my area too there are kids who could go to T20 schools and choose flagship U instead. I couldn’t understand until a neighbor explained that many families want their children to continue to live close to them and that the friendships they form while in college is important for networking in the state in the future. This wouldn’t be my choice, but this is a rational thought process. If the choice were so that the kid could get a car, I’d say it’s irrational but that’s my value system. Same with friends. If my kid had a hard time making friends and it would be easier for him/her to go to a local school because they would be able to have a better social life, then I think that’s rational even though I’d try to address this issue another way. If my kid easily makes friends, I’d think this would be a short-sighted choice. It’s all so heavily fact dependent, and it’s impossible to see what’s rational and what isn’t without lots of good communication.
My alma mater is NOT a liberal arts college. It is also an R1, but a private R1 in the top 15 of the National US News rankings. I stressed that the local public university they are seized with is an R1 so as to not diminish that it is a very solid university, just massive, with lots of bureaucracy, easy to get overwhelmed, lots of rah-rah sports and high school carry-over, lower 4-year grad rate, lower 6-year grad rate, lots of achievement distance between top and bottom students.
I’m friends with dozens of the flagship university alums. They all love it and enjoyed their time there, but I haven’t had one tell me they’d choose it for their kids over my alma mater. Not one.
Melvin, you don’t get very far telling your kid “don’t date him/her. She’s ugly, he’s a loser.”. Even if you think you’re protecting your child’s best interests.
I’m sensing that what’s going on here is the step dad explaining that the kids first choice of colleges is both ugly and for losers. And I’m suggesting that once everyone stops digging in to their own position and listening to the other point of view, they may make progress.
@melvin123 Its our job to help our kids see their options, but within a rage of reasonable choices, to let them make their on decisions and their own mistakes. I agree with your post that it is very individual. Without knowing the details of this particular situation, there is no way we can know whether the student is making a mistake. We don’t even know his interests or his intended course of study. If he wants to go into investment banking, he is probably making a very big mistake. If he wants to be a high school teacher in the geographic area of his top choice college, then he is probably making an excellent decision. That is just one of an infinate number of factors to consider. The OP seems to think that the ranking should be the only consideration, since that is the only detail he provided. But, for most kids, especially kids with family able to fund full pay at a top 15 university, ranking is not anywhere near the most important detail.
@stepdad2022 sorry for my misunderstanding. Is your stepson shy? Does he maybe want to stay with his friends at the local U because he’s anxious about making new friends?
Alternatively, if he only got in because of the legacy preference, he might flunk out of Harvard or barely manage to graduate but do so poorly that he would have limited graduate school or job opportunities. Is this better than doing well at the University of South Alabama? I don’t think so.
Sometimes, when a kid thinks that a college is out of his league, he’s right. I think that my son most likely made a good decision in this regard. He was planning to major in computer science, and his friends urged him to apply to my alma mater, which has an excellent major in that field. They kept bugging him about this because of the legacy preference. But he knew he was underqualified for my alma mater. If he got in, it would have been only because of the legacy preference, and he would have been one of the least qualified students in his department. He chose not to apply and ended up at our flagship state university instead, where he had a good experience and successfully completed his major (with honors). He now has a nice career going in his field.
Consider whether you might be pushing your stepson into a situation that he’s not qualified for.
I was using Williams as an example, because it is small and rural to show that OP’s stepson may have issues with OP’s alma mater for lots of reasons and not just that it’s a T-15 school. Many of the LACs could have served as an example.
I should have said I don’t find Williams diverse, but I don’t find many of the LACs very diverse. You might, although IIRC, your son doesn’t fit into any of the categories you named (Pell eligible, non-white, international, receiving FA). Williams (or Amherst or Colby or Bates) can give aid to families making $100k per year and those stats get included in ‘50% received need based aid.’ It doesn’t make those families any poorer or needier than families at other schools where they don’t get need based aid. 8% international isn’t a high number. My daughter’s school has 30%, but it isn’t one big melting pot.
I did work with a man who had gone to Williams many years ago on a program for extremely poor students. He was all the things you described (poor, black, first generation, on 100% need based aid) and he didn’t enjoy his college experience at all. He understood and appreciated the opportunity, but was never integrated into the school. That was years ago and I hope things are very different now. This guy’s son had no interest in Williams (or Harvard, where the dad went to law school). The son is black, but not first generation and not poor. He didn’t want to go to the small, rural, preppy, white (only 7% identify as black) school. The son had many choices and rejected the T-15 school, just like the OP’s stepson wants to do. Son wanted a fun college experience with his friends, and I’m sure his father describing his experience at Williams, of feeling left out, of being poor, didn’t help sell the school; he also didn’t need the opportunity as much as his father had.
OP may have done the same thing over the years when talking about his experience at the T-15 and turned the stepson off. The OP may have described his school and the experience, and the stepson thought “What a bunch of nerds” and wants a different experience from college.
Harvard ordinary legacies do have to meet high enough academic standards that they should not be at significant risk of flunking out due to academic reasons, even though they may not need to meet the high school superstar standards of unhooked admits. However, it is possible that development or VIP admits who fall significantly below the ordinary high end academic standards could be more at risk academically.
Along these lines, perhaps it is relevant whether the OP’s stepson’s academic credentials are within the typical range of admits at the OP’s alma mater.
