I know several high net worth families; parents were boot-strap striver types, have worked their fingers to the bone achieving professional and financial success. Parent was a “scholarship student” at Dartmouth or Amherst or fill in the blank (that’s literally what it was called back in the day). Kids want to go to SMU or Wisconsin or Villanova or Penn State (depending on the location/demographics), etc. They want fun parties; they don’t want to work as hard as their parents did; they know they’re full pay and probably won’t be on food stamps when they graduate so why not enjoy the journey?
OP, Keep in mind you are on a forum with a highly skewed public school demographic and lots of people looking for financial aid or scholarships to cover college costs, neither which you are concerned with. Those are some of the primary reasons many posters come to cc. As the percent of overall population paying for and attending an elite private school is low compared with overall population, same goes on CC. Ironically, talking to his wife and son is like talking to many posters on here, they don’t have the background or experience to understand. Assumptions are abundant and unproductive - it is not an LAC and you don’t have to do ED or buy a building to get a legacy kid in. There are plenty of admits with “special preference” which is used all the time. It can be done with a phone call.
The alma mater is a better school. Period. In the same way posters tell others that a kid can make things great and happen at any college in response to a kid only getting admitted to a school they think is beneath them - then why couldn’t his step-son make it great and things happen at one of the best schools in the country? OP just has to take a subtle approach and show them why it is better over the next couple months. If ya haven’t had better, it is hard to understand what is better, but it doesn’t mean he can’t show the wife and step son the differences. They are inexperienced, but he didn’t say they were stupid. Some don’t understand how a $100K car can be better than their Chevy. It’s just perspective. But if the Chevy owner has never driven or spent time in the $100K car, how can they give a true opinion about the two?
List the most important things to get out of any college and talk about the pros and cons of any college on his list in that regard. Talk about it together and get to where you all are on the same page about what is wanted out of a school. Spend time at several schools, the more you see, the more you get closer to what is really wanted.
It is also possible that the OP’s description of things intended to be positive aspects (e.g. the connections to influential people and elite jobs) came across the wrong way to the stepson, in terms of connoting a place of unearned nepotistic privilege, rather than a place where students have earned their way in on their own achievements.
Another possibility is that if the OP’s family had social contact with others in the SES classes associated with the OP’s alma mater, and the stepson had difficulty relating to them, that may have reinforced negative stereotypes about “preppy rich kids”.
This is unequivocally false. The big public university is a tremendous value for a particular student, but not of the caliber of my alma mater and provides nowhere near the wrap-around resources for students like him. A school with tens of thousands of undergrads can be totally paralyzing once things get rolling. Please examine your motives. The issue is the young man and his mother can’t articulate even good things about the public university, let alone genuine drawbacks of my alma mater. I know both colleges backwards and forwards and would have little issue if he/they were expressing deep interest in programs the flagship public is known for.
And to alleviate the geographic assumptions, this isn’t a matter of us living on the East Coast and I want to send him off to Stanford. This is closer to something like Penn State v Penn, Penn State v Princeton, UVA v Duke, Indiana v Northwestern. My alma mater isn’t as close as the flagship university, but only a few hours drive time. But no, he wouldn’t walk in with high school friends and I suppose too far for his mother to realistically do his laundry or meet him for lunch very frequently. And my alma mater sporting matches might lack tens of thousands of drunken hooligans.
It is difficult to offer meaningful advice about potential or lost options when we do not know the “R1 huge public university”.
What if the huge public is Michigan, UNC, Georgia, Texas, Univ. of Washington, etc. ?
Also, would it be wise to bring in a college counselor when one is touting connections used for a Top 15 private national university admissions ?
How many well qualified applicants has that college counselor had denied ? What if the college counselor thinks he or she now has an in to that T-15 private national university ?
Bingo. As someone above mentioned somewhere, I too am always surprised by the naivete of some posters who actually think these schools are being completely transparent with their admissions policies.
This is getting at an issue I have. The flagship is the bee’s knees to the state’s middle class, it seems very fun, going in with friends, it just an easy place to glide into. In contrast to my alma mater seeming more serious, wealthier and full of unknowns. My alma mater is certainly a more serious experience overall. I think his mother indulges in making her son happy NOW, so there’s a gravitation to the public university with his friends, familiar surroundings and the sporting matches. They don’t even consider the downsides, the distractions, the sheer lack of growth & maturity that occurs if a first-generation student surrounds himself with friends from high school (which he’s already signaled he will). My alma mater might be a rocky start, but it has none of the downsides, and I firmly believe he’ll be happier and more successful from age 20 to 80 if he attends.
@stepdad2022 - understand that yours is not a LAC. I was just referencing that I attended a T20 school (happened to be a LAC) as was explaining the alum interviews (and apologies for the typo). Your desire to educate your W and Stepson about the wonderful benefits of a private, most likely well endowed T20 top research institution is completely understandable, as is your frustration, but, for whatever reason, your efforts are falling on 2 sets of deaf ears.
One thought- perhaps you can negotiate with them that if they will agree to at least attend a tour/info session with you that you’ll not bring it up again. That it would be up to them at that point, and if they have no interest or questions, that you’d let it go. Might that work? Is he applying anywhere else or just the local U?
@stepdad2022: These are reasonable thoughts & concerns that most any parent would have.
We dealt with a similar situation regarding a full ride (not just full tuition scholarship) to an R1 huge state public university versus what was then a Top 15 serious private national university for our son who chose the Top 15 private. (But we had no connections regarding admissions.) But our situation had a key difference in that our son graduated from an elite private boarding school so there were no comfort issues with the T-15 private university.
And, if the school is Duke, my nephew just graduated & is now a grad student there. (Recruited athlete.)
I can assure you that there are wealth issues & other issues there even for one who could have afforded full pay without the need for any loans whatsoever. (And since the athletic scholarship was small, they did pay 75% to 80% of total COA.) And are full pay for Duke grad school & for him the wealth is overwhelming.
OP - Would your S qualify for honors college or a living/learning community at the R1 school? That can make a huge school much more intimate and add an extra level of support (depending on the school).
I will also add my voice to caution to not push too hard. My husband’s family flipped out when they heard our daughter wasn’t applying to the family alma mater and I honestly think that made her dig in her heels more.
@gallentjill commented that it’s our job to help our kids see their options, but within a range of reasonable choices, to let them make their own decisions and their own mistakes. Then @stepdad2022 makes reference to a first-generation student and how it would be socially easier for S to go to local U rather than Alma Mater, but would be missing out on connections and more personal growth (presumably because of increased challenges of being in a more challenging/less comfortable environment). This is where I think it gets into the nitty gritty of talking about each of the factors involved. It may be that for this individual student the transition would be too rocky and he isn’t mature enough yet. There is no use pushing the kid if he isn’t ready because he won’t take advantage of it. But, my question is, could the kid become ready in the year (or two? what grade is S in?) it takes before he goes to school? Is this a personality thing, or an experience thing? And it will only work if the kid has complete buy-in and wants it for himself. I’d hate for this kid to miss out on an incredible growth experience because he is scared or doesn’t believe in himself, or isn’t mature this year but will be next year. Yes, the college experience will ultimately be the kid’s decision (even if he goes to Alma Mater, the kid will have whatever experience there that he makes), but when we see our kids making decisions I think it’s important that they realize why they are making it and are making it with the correct set of facts rather than facts based out of fear. Now that more information is coming out, I’m wondering whether it would be helpful, as other people have suggested, OP makes this not a binary discussion (Alma Mater or local U) but opens up the discussion to other schools too as a method of fleshing out S’ concerns and showing S he has more strength than he might otherwise currently realize.
I think you have been given some thoughtful and useful advice considering how little we all know of the situation. Without knowing more about your stepson’s qualifications, interests, and intended major, I don’t think you are going to get anything more.
I am coming from a different perspective. I graduated from one of those top schools and my daughter would have been a legacy. She would have been a 4th generation legacy at my husband’s alma mater (also a top school). But I fully supported her decision to go in a different direction. I think it was the right decision for her and has proven to be a great move.
Not every student excells in a highly competative and serious environment. But only you and your family know the truth of it. If you truly believe that your stepson has the ability to excel there, then take the suggestions already given to try to coax them to give the school a fair try. This was basically the tack I took. I told her that the decision was hers as long as she promised to give the schools I liked a fair shot with an open mind. It worked out beautifully in the end.
“UVA vs. Duke”. That’s a curious example. Many top Virginia kids end up at UVA and might not even consider Duke if full pay, unless they were very wealthy. Many would not even bother to apply ,regardless of income… A family we know , where the dad was a Duke alum, rep for his university at college fairs, had a son who ended up at UVA. The kid was accepted to Duke, waitlisted at UVA, instate. He got off the waitlist and switched to UVA. UVA is a top 25 national university , popular with both instate and OOS applicants.
Actually, this whole scenario outlined by the OP seems quite curious.
Sorry, I also want to add that some of these top tier schools really are crazy hard (U Chicago and Princeton come to mind), and that they take a tremendous commitment on the part of the student. It truly is legitimate for someone to say that they are not up for that kind of commitment, and that needs to be respected. Again, both sides have to listen to all the facts and take into account the personality and needs of S.
“For our edification and curiosity (since we are all dying to know but most are too polite to ask) why did you marry a woman for whom you have so little respect???”
REALLY? CC needs to get over it and focus on the issue which is a problem for MANY families.
(My mom would say “I can’t even spit…”)
But I do have words…as usual.
So…
My mom didn’t go to college so my dad did the guiding for us. With input. It was not left up to us as a blank slate to make decisions because we didn’t have the experience. Same as most EVERY kid.
Did dad get final say? NO.
But we had a TON of guidance to get to our present state.in life I would NEVER have landed in that sweet spot on my own without parental guidance.
So., you and your wife need to get on the same page. The final decision is not made and isn’t part of the equation actually. Just need to allow your son the opportunity to explore the options.
I sense a real disconnect here between your idea of a good time and your wife/son’s. Maybe they like the big college rah-rah atmosphere, the tens of thousands of drunken hooligans at the football “sporting match.”
I’m not liking the hint of snobbery I sense here. Big State U has a lot to offer everyone, even if they’re riff-raff.
@melvin123: Re: Your post #90 above. There are lots of mature students at large state universities. And there is a lot of personal growth that occurs at large state schools.
@stepdad2022 - This decision is your stepson’s to make, and is not one that you want to own. I sense quite a bit of paternalism in your approach which, in this particular scenario, is likely proving counterproductive.
I can think of plenty of reasons why a student might choose Penn State over U Penn or Princeton, or choose UVA over Duke (my cousin’s daughter did just that – she was a legacy at Duke but got the heebie-jeebies just being on campus; she loved everything about her UVA experience and feels very connected to that school), or pick Indiana over Northwestern (I know someone that just turned down Vandy for Indiana). Heck, I even know someone who turned down MIT for the University of Ohio. The reasons don’t have to be articulable to you or to anyone else – they may just be based on a “gut feeling.” That’s as valid a reason as any.
That said, I think that you should encourage you SS to keep an open mind and to allow you a “parent’s choice” on his list. Likewise, you need to keep an open mind and let your SS forge his own path.
Another thing to consider – assuming your connections to your alma mater carry as much weight at you profess they do, surely you could manage to get your SS in as a transfer student if he were not to be fully happy at the R1 public were he to go that route.
I suggest you read some of Frank Bruni’s stuff – “Where You Go Is Not Who You’ll Be” is his magnum opus and worth a read, as are his many pieces in the NYTs. I particularly liked his recent opinion piece on “How to Get the Most Out of College.” A running theme through these works are that students can and should “bloom where planted.”
When you treat people the way you’re coming across here (already described by others), they shut down and stop listening. It doesn’t matter how right you might be, how logical your position may be, how much their position defies logic, or how good your intentions are. They won’t care what you have to say anymore because you don’t care what they have to say.
When you treat the people closest to you this way, you put the very foundation of your relationships with them in jeopardy. They lose trust, and once trust is gone, it’s hard to regain without working hard to earn it back.
The step-father/son dynamic can also be an added challenge. Even if bio dad is out of the picture and has never had a relationship with bio son, there can be some resentment when step-son feels step-dad is trying to take over and control step-son’s life, and telling him where and how to spend the next four years of his life is a biggie.
Also, if step-son sees step-dad treating his mother in a demeaning and condescending manner (which seems likely here), that’s not going to help him respect step-dad’s opinion or judgment, either. It’s just gong to be another reason to shut him out.
The bottom line is that your approach is not working, and Common Sense 101 tells us that when our approach is not working, we need to hit the reset button and change our approach.
When I want someone to listen to me, I start by listening to them. If I want their respect, I treat them with respect. I talk with them, not at them.
