<p>From another thread I’m watching.</p>
<p>One of the students suggested that the OP, who likes Ivy League schools and seems to like California in general but does not want to go to Berkeley, might consider Pepperdine, and the OP (a quintessential CC kid with the grades, test scores, and ECs you’d expect) replied:</p>
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<p>Maybe we parents as well as the kids’ teachers have worked too hard to make sure these kids have high self esteem.</p>
<p>?!?</p>
<p>Someone has certainly worked too hard to make rankings and tiers the driving factor in college choice. Parents I know were puzzled that their child had chosen X over Y, because Y seemed like a much better fit to them. The child’s answer: X is ranked higher than Y, of course. I wonder if the student will transfer if X drops down in the rankings. Makes me feel great that I have an essentially humble, positive, and down-to-earth kid.</p>
<p>Wait a minute - if parents are going to criticize another CC member, especially a kid, I think we should have the openness to do it “to his face” on his own thread. It’s fine to disagree and to respectfully call other members on their folly, but not behind their back. We had another case a few years ago where some parent plucked a kid up, who was minding his own business on another thread, brought his case over to the Parents board and started trashing him. Needless to say he found it out and was very hurt.</p>
<p>The other kids in the thread were giving him enough grief. </p>
<p>And I shouldn’t have written it that way, so it looks like I am aggravated with this one student - I didn’t mean to give this one particular kid grief (although this quote is a perfect illustration of what makes me think “this is just too much” ). I think that if you look in the individual college forums or the college search and selection forum, you see statements like this every week, coming from different smart kids from all around the country. Too many kids don’t want to look beyond the very top rated colleges. They think going anywhere that is not a top school will diminish them. And I do think that our kids have been praised a lot, from the day they were born.</p>
<p>Some of the kids, like the good student above, will almost certainly get into the top rated schools. Some won’t, and will approach the honors program of their flagship U’s as if they were headed to their doom.</p>
<p>Sigh…</p>
<p>Should I ask the mods to delete the quote? I shouldn’t have done a direct quote, but I couldn’t resist: it was just too perfect.</p>
<p>I don’t think discussing this issue is trashing a kid. The point raised by OP is worthy of discussion. Do we place too much emphasis on self-esteem? </p>
<p>IMO, as we raise our kids, it is important to be reminded from time to time that we need to help them keep things in balance. A child who thinks <em>too highly</em> of him or herself is really being set up for a fall. No matter how well our kids do in school or on tests, they must also be able to get along in the real world. Please note: No personal attack is intended toward any child in particular as I state my opinion.</p>
<p>I agree that discussing this issue is a fine idea. I also agree that it seems like trashing the kid by directly quoting his thread. As I’ve said before, of all of the sites I read and post on, CC seems them least welcoming of dissenting points of view.</p>
<p>Well at least you didn’t name the poster. As far as I can tell, it could be written by 100s of kids on CC (and maybe in this case they were purposefully being provocative?). They did a good job of articulating a not uncommon sentimentbut they were brave enough to speak it out loud. I’m just trying to look on the bright side…</p>
<p>And this common sentiment concerns me a lot too. Not a concern so much that kids feel they deserve a good education-- very many on CC do! But I feel so disheartened and sad that these many of these kids are so bright and so hard working but they’ve been utterly blindsided by ranking stats. They quote them like sports scores (and now have started quoting their HS rank too). And speak so authoritatively and judgementally about theirs and others college choices (and abilities to get in there!). Yet, as we know, the vast majority of them know little about what makes for good higher education, have little data to make any real comparisons, and have never even visited the ‘schools they are obsessed with’ or the schools they trash. And frankly, spending the day on a campus and saying it’s your dream school is as valid as being maturely in love with a person after one date. </p>
<p>It seems “quality education” (or its attributes) has been replaced simplistically by a ‘prestige score’ “ranking” or “selectivity”. Students use it as the litmus tests of quality “this school is more selective than that school so it must be better”. Nonsense. It would be wonderful if we knew selectivity truly reflected a better education. That would happen if consumers could accurately judge the quality of education across many schools and voted with their applications; but instead, everyone applies to schools not because they have knowledge that they are good, but simply that they are selective! Its a self-fulfilling cycle! </p>
<p>The schools from 10 or 20 years ago haven’t necessarily improved (in fact some argue they’ve gotten worse) even though they find themselves getting increasingly popular and selective among teenagers. Through massive marketing, branding, very consciously and sophisticating playing ranking games, they are able to move up the rankings, change their yield and selectivity and viola, they move up the rankings and justify their tuition! And it becomes a self-fulfilling cycle; more students apply only because it’s a “selective school” so it stays in the top or moves up further. You don’t really think administrators only care about how classes are taught do you? You think they don’t run models and hire consultants and have a big marketing budget? Why should any of that matter if it was just about quality education? </p>
<p>The schools are not changing much: it’s more window dressing that anything substantive. If anything the quality is going down. When I taught at the high end, and for a period ran the core in our school, it was so much about packaging to stay at the top. We developed an ‘X curriculum’ that sounded great on paper but I assure you, required minimal pedagogical change or faculty effort. We debated how the numbers got presented to the magazine, what we had to give them, how it could be different. We strategized intensely when each issue came out. We hired more professionals. We made some investments sure, but often looked for ways to make changes that would stand out but cost us little. It’s just like any other business. And being private, we had funds to do so (in a state school, they have to put the money into the classroom and infrastructure so they don’t have the ability to burn money on consultants and marketing and ranking games). The only thing that makes this industry different is that it’s cloaked in ‘education’ as if there is some sort of higher moral purpose here, so the consumers don’t realize they are just consumers and that they are paying a premium for a brand. </p>
<p>Okay end of rant. BTW, I think Pepperdine is a wonderful school!</p>
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<p>hmom5, somewhat off topic, but what is the “dissenting point of view” you want to see on this thread? That it is appropriate/understandable for high school students to feel that they “deserve” only the better schools?</p>
<p>It’s that we live in an age of rankings and ratings and as long as folks keep buying US News we will continue to. So trashing a kid who thinks this way seems inappropriate to me. I could certainly see a thread on how your view differs, but why suggest the kid was not well raised?</p>
<p>It’s all about the judgmental tone I think CC would be better without.</p>
<p>Many of these high achieveing kids have sacrificed a lot socially, and mentally, for what they have achieved. They feel like they’ve “paid” for their spot – and in some ways they have. In our area, the high schools can be a pressure cooker. Not all of the families buy into it, but they’re not the ones on CC ! I’m amazed at my own kids - music, church, part time work, grades, test scores…I would never want to be a HS junior again !! </p>
<p>Any way, they’re just teens - not adults - I wouldn’t take it quite so seriously.</p>
<p>so hmom5, what would be a more appropriate way to have phrased the original post, in your opinion?</p>
<p>In the case of some posters, “judgmental” means someone doesn’t agree with them…</p>
<p>As a society we’re extremely brand-conscious. College selection is just another example.</p>
<p>Honestly whoever typed that just sounds like a brat. “You might as well go preach that college is what you make of it.”??? College IS what you make of it. From both an education and social standpoint, you only get what you put in. An over-achiever at Ohio State could conceivably receive a better education than a slacker at Princeton.</p>
<p>Well, in fairness, I can see a young person thinking that way. I think I did, when I was 18 years old :-). And the 18 yo’s who engage in the stupid endless debates of ranking the Ivies or arguing Duke vs Dartmouth will grow up, and be embarrassed by their old posts.</p>
<p>What’s disheartening is when you see adults on CC who are obsessed with getting their kids into only a very select few schools and can’t possibly understand that smart, hard working people do well regardless of where they go. I expect kids to be naive brand-chasers because they don’t have life experience. I don’t expect adults to be.</p>
<p>I might get flamed for this, but I think it’s hypocritical for CC posters to give that kid a bad time. After all, the emphasis on prestige colleges is a core of this site. Yes, college is what you make of it and fit is important, but if a kid has worked really hard and has fabulous grades and stats and EC’s, he/she may not find what works for them at schools below a certain perceived cut-off. And yes, I know there are many threads about trade-offs when you get into the world of merit scholarships and the value of $50k Ivies vs. State Flagship. But for now, cut the kid some slack.</p>
<p>Look at the world around you.</p>
<p>The OP as well as allot of the current younger generation have some very extreme opinions regarding what they think they are entitled to. That’s a shame because it will cost them dearly, and sooner than they can possibly imagine.</p>
<p>Look at the world around you.</p>
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<p>Entirely agree. Its the general belief I have a problem with, not who holds it. For teens to feel this way, it makes a lot of sense. But it’s the adults I don’t understand. Its the adults, the one’s footing the bill that should be beyond it.</p>
<p>Let’s not forget the site was founded by Dave Barry, author of America’s Elite Colleges: The Smart Buyer’s Guide To The Ivy League and Other Top Schools. When a friend recommended the site she called it an ivy league admissions site and I believe CC used to bill itself as such.</p>
<p>I think the issue is with how the student phrased his opinion. It is perfectly OK to feel that a certain school might not be a good fit for you without claiming to “deserve better”.
The first college we visited with our daughter was a very nice and highly regarded regional school in the midwest. There was nothing wrong with it, but our daughter was hoping for a school with a little more academic and musical prestige. She didn’t announce that she “deserved better” though.</p>