<p>Either minority groups need and want special consideration in admissions and school policy, or they don’t But if they do need it and want it, (eg. because of the history of oppression and injustices perpetrated on them), then it’s a bit much to be ticked off if someone mistakenly assumes they actually needed that special consideration (such as an admissions boost)… </p>
<p>“So linden, you’re saying don’t hire minorities because they will be a problem at the job?”</p>
<p>No, she is saying she wouldn’t hire anyone who always plays the victim and at the drop of a hat would sue her for any perceived grievance even if it wasn’t true or didn’t amount to anything significant. It’s more of a personality type than a racial issue. I bet there were plenty of minorities at Harvard who didn’t participate in this activity. </p>
<p>Also, eliminating/not having special recruitment/admission programs doesn’t stop bigoted backbiting about whether one “deserved admission” to a given academic institution.</p>
<p>Some years after I graduated HS, my urban public magnet HS eliminated a program which enabled low-income students who scored within a limited range below my HS’s cutoff score to get a “second chance” by attending and passing special summer prep program which evaluated them on their ability to cope with my HS’s academic rigor and pacing*. </p>
<p>What’s more ironic is the vast majority of those attending this “second chance program” according to publicized stats tend to be Asian-American or of various European ethnicities. </p>
<p>Despite this, the level of this type of backbiting has gotten markedly worse afterwards as reported in some local newspapers within the last few years and according to HS teachers and alums who teach/have daily contact there. Frankly, it was shocking compared with what I remembered from my days as a student there.</p>
<p>All this despite the fact everyone attending has taken and passed the exact same exam, the limited low-income second chance program was eliminated, and most who took advantage of that program weren’t URMs. </p>
<ul>
<li>Gaining entry into the second-chance program is no guarantee one was going to be eligible to attend my public magnet in the fall. Students did flunk out when they weren’t able to keep up.<br></li>
</ul>
<p>“It’s more of a personality type than a racial issue. I bet there were plenty of minorities at Harvard who didn’t participate in this activity.” Spot on.</p>
<p>Also, eliminating/not having special recruitment/admission programs doesn’t stop bigoted backbiting about whether one “deserved admission” to a given academic institution.</p>
<p>BINGO. The problem exists.</p>
<p>Y’all want to complain about “their” sensitivity and don’t see your own. Ha. Again, the problem.</p>
<p>One thing I like on CC is that we interact without knowing who’s what. Experience comes to matter more. The validity of some position, how it’s phrased, what we add. Not whether one is Asian American, Black, pretty, fat, of some descent or wealthy, whatever. Why isn’t it more like this in real life? What happens when we categorize people based on appearance?</p>
<p>And anecdotes? Just some tale.</p>
<p>cobrat, has there ever been a topic regarding which you do not claim to have some direct experience or have a cousin, classmate, or co-worker who did? Sorry, but I can’t take your stories seriously anymore. </p>
<p>Regardless, I don’t think one alleged case is proof there wouldn’t be an improvement in assumptions of deservedness if special admissions considerations were eliminated. What I could see happen, since it happened in CA, is that if colleges no longer worried about maintaining a racial/ethnic balance, there would likely be different composition than exists currently. The group(s) whose numbers would go down would not be happy at all. But that’s different.</p>
<p>Lookingforward, if your above comment about not seeing one’s own sensitivity is referring to my post about the letters, let me repeat what I said. I said we thought they were annoying, but understood the reason for them. Annoying. Not racist or micro-aggressive. Above I was playing devil advocate with sseamom, because I would have thought she’d have been outraged at the stereotypical assumptions made about a minority which are of the same degree of mildness as the ones we are discussing on the thread. Tellingly, she wasn’t. </p>
<p>No, GFG, it was general. Because posters are reacting in their way about a group of H students reacting in theirs. I hope the first link and this discussion at least raised some awareness. </p>
<p>If you boil admissions down to who’s val and has good stats, maybe Stu G prez- or who “we” on CC think should have the best chances- of course holistic can drive one nuts. Further, when one hears about AA, there is an assumption minorities get a great big hook, one that has it’s own power, overcomes adcoms and can bring a subpar,overtly incapable kid to a place that, in “CC-think,” they don’t deserve. Add comments about how “minorities” whine and it really gets out of hand, a tempest. </p>
<p>And to think this all started about Harvard, not East Nowhere. </p>
<p>I don’t know what college sent the Spanish info, but would be stunned, yes. And was also struck by the mami y papi comments. I’m not overly sensitive. And I don’t like whiners any more than the next guy does. But I see so many comments, through so many threads, that boil down to saying minorities are subpar. Always circling around this question of their SATs. Holistic looks for so much more- and there are tens of thousands applying to Ivies, thousands applying to their little sisters- kids with all sorts of strengths, achievements, perspective, challenges they’ve taken on, responsibilities held, etc. A shame URMs are presumed to be not as good as others.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>How does this diminish real racism?</p>
<p>I think some people just don’t have boundaries.
People didn’t even ask if they could touch my hair when it was longer, which is one reason I wear it short. I can’t stand to be touched, sometimes not even by H.
Before I had a breast reduction, I also used to get asked if they were real, ( as if someone with half a brain would do it on purpose)
These weren’t people I knew, but people on the street.( bus stop)</p>
<p>I just took it to mean that some men in a particular culture were comfortable objectifying me, as they seemed surprised that I did not find their attentions flattering.</p>
<p>We are all racist, sexist, ageist & classist.
It only varies by degree and how willing we are to be truthful to ourselves.</p>
<p>The stated objective of this project of pointing out the unacceptability of these comments confuses me. Does anyone really think that the vast majority of the population in this day and age doesn’t already recognize these comments for what they are? To me, the signs are stating the obvious, so I really just don’t see why this project is such a “cause celebre”. I also believe that these sorts of comments are not all that prevalent on the Harvard campus. They seem very “middle schoolish” to me.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>However, it does seem that at least some of these students find them frequent enough to be annoying. Even if only a small percentage of people make such comments, they can be annoying because the same people end up being the recipients of the comments.</p>
<p>Note that #5, #6, and #14 in <a href=“63 Black Harvard Students Share Their Experiences In A Powerful Photo Project”>http://www.buzzfeed.com/alisonvingiano/21-black-harvard-students-share-their-experiences-through-a</a> could be directed to other black people (in relation to the [“acting</a> white”](<a href=“http://educationnext.org/actingwhite/]"acting”>http://educationnext.org/actingwhite/) phenomenon) as well as non-black people ([similar</a> insults exist for other racial and ethnic groups](<a href=“http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/chinese-media-outlet-racial-slur-us-envoy-22717614]similar”>http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/chinese-media-outlet-racial-slur-us-envoy-22717614)).</p>
<p>Also, some comments or questions might be made innocently or not. For example, “Where are you from?” sometimes, but not always, implies that the questioner assumes that the other person is of foreign origin, rather than American. A listener who is American might find such implications annoying. However, the best answer for this one, rather than a hyperreaction of assuming the insensitively ignorant intent, is to assume the opposite and simply state the actual city, region, or state in the US where one is from. Then note the reaction of the questioner, which will reveal what s/he was thinking.</p>
<p>I ask people where they are from frequently. And yes, that includes those that are clearly from places other than America. I see it as a way to connect and express interest in who they are. I have never gotten a negative reaction to this question. In fact, to the contrary. Most people seem eager to talk about where they are from.</p>
<p>I would see " where are you from" as a personal question, unless they had already introduced the topic by saying they just moved here.
But that isn’t because I wouldn’t be interested, but perhaps because of the northwest culture, I rarely ask questions that could be taken the wrong way.
( unless you are asking my children, they would probably say that is all I do)</p>
<p>%-( </p>
<p>emeraldkity’s mention of the word classist made me think that aspects of this project are actually classist on the part of the participants. What they are really angry about is that some people mistakenly assumed that THEY were like some other African-Americans who are less articulate, not as well-educated, and have different life goals than they do. These young people were irritated that some of their classmates expressed surprise to find they were different than what the classmates had expected to encounter in a black person. The classmates seemed surprised to learn that the black student was actually a lot like them, which is to say a smart, motivated, articulate person who belongs at Harvard! I can understand that these students are offended that the initial assumptions by their peers are sometimes too low.</p>
<p>However, what I would like the Harvard students to answer is this: Are African Americans a minority group that is a collection of highly diverse individuals, each with their own variable characteristics, who are no more alike one to another than any random two people out there with the same skin color or hair type? Or are they a special group that to this day are victimized and continue to experience the results of their past oppressions, which include poverty, broken family life, poor education, poor opportunity, unemployment, etc…? So long as black community leaders preach the latter narrative, and demand reparations and remedies from government and society, then I think that black people are going to be viewed according to those socio-economic assumptions. </p>
<p>It seems to me that these students are saying “We are still the victims of racism and micro-aggressions, because our Harvard peers make comments to us that reveal they expected us to be more different from them, but are acknowledging that in reality we are every bit as Harvard-like as they are!” But out of the other side of their mouths, they’re saying “We’re different! We’re not just like you white people, so stop saying we are more like you than you expected. We’re part of a special group, which you don’t belong to, that has been victimized and still is victimized by people like you, and we’re demanding it stop.” I’m not convinced a middle ground exists that would make them happy.</p>
<p>Well, what if we just view “black people” not as this “mass of people” with stereotypical features and motivations, but simply as a collection of individuals? Would it be that much more difficult to see every person as an individual rather than to assign the person first to some comfortable or convenient feeling “group category” and then not actually finding out what that person is actually about?</p>
<p>Operant conditioning: middle class (at worst) students who spoon fed the victim card BS to adcoms and it got them into Harvard. Of course they’re going to keep playing it. At the greatest university in the world acting like prisoners of war. Their issues are largely in their heads. Their parents should be embarrassed, but usually the apple didn’t fall very far from the tree.</p>
<p>Angry? Remember, “Having an opinion does not make me an ‘Angry Black Woman.’”
Are you saying they should put up and shut up?</p>
<p>Don’t you see it? some people mistakenly assumed that THEY were like some other African-Americans who are less articulate, </p>
<p>Some other African Americans? Why does this even come up? </p>
<p>You would settle for people assuming your kids were less articulate, couldn’t read, etc, because “some” Hispanics aren’t or can’t? Or you would say, look at my kids as individuals, having merit in their own right. </p>
<p>GFG, do you see your own anger? “So long as black community leaders preach the latter narrative-” Yow. You’re not alone in your views. (But that doesn’t make them fair.) People seem outraged the kids brought this up. Btw, it’s related to a play held on campus, last Friday. Now some can get annoyed there was a play.</p>
<p>Don’t ascribe this to self-pity or White guilt. Look at it for what it is. People can take this just as: a group of same race kids at a leading U, pointing out some comments they are surprised by, all things considered. </p>
<p>The response could simply be: “wow, didn’t realize; I’ll try to watch myself.” Instead of stuff about Blacks whine this and Blacks that. </p>
<p>I can’t speak for their parents, but I wouldn’t be embarassed of these kids, as a parent. I think it’s beneficial for society in the long-term that issues like these are made explicit – why keep a lid on stuff that bothers people – stuff that isn’t necessary to keep around?</p>
<p>I am saying minority groups can’t have it both ways. They can’t say we’re individuals about whom you should have no pre-conceived notions whatsoever, and at the same time claim that they, as a whole group, are in an oppressed state in our society–a condition that produces certain deleterious effects like the lack of educational achievement.</p>
<p>TheGFG, I don’t think that Harvard students are complaining about the deleterious effects like the lack of educational achievement.</p>