<p>These kids didn’t bring up oppression. This thread and many media reader comments did.
Maybe some community leaders do. Maybe some community programs ascribe problems to some long standing woes. </p>
<p>And, just maybe, plenty of non-Blacks are still playing their own role in pre-judging and assuming. Same happens to other types of groups, depending on where you are. Sure. But each of us can stand to examine our own preconceived notions. </p>
<p>Just because these students go to Harvard doesn’t automatically make them immune to racism! Fact is that they are a minority that gets judged and stereotyped. So WHY NOT raise their issues? Why not???
Racism at Harvard is racism nonetheless. What makes it more concerning is that a place like HARVARD that apparently has the worlds brightest minds and future leaders and what not is a place where this happens. One can only imagine what takes places at other universities. I suggest that this campaign should go viral with other universities and colleges taking part. It’s time to face the truth and work on it rather than saying “deal with it, everyone goes through it at some point”.</p>
<p>The proudest I have ever been of my D was when she spoke up about negative and racist comments she’d gotten as the only black student in a class filled with upper-income white kids in a school filled with the same. Rather than playing 'the victim", she spoke out because she wanted it to end, not just for her, but for those who came after her, as well as those she knew were avoiding the place because of a long history of negative treatment of black kids. And something interesting happened. While some parents screeched about her playing the victim, accused her of making it up and/or of us prompting her to exaggerate, there were other who came to us, and to her THANKING her for daylighting a problem that some didn’t want to admit. </p>
<p>And rather than D growing up to whine and complain about being victimized, she’s become leader of her peers, standing up not just for racial justice, but for an end to name-calling and bullying of young people with disabilities, gender issues, and cultural assumptions. I couldn’t be more proud of her and certainly am not embarrassed. </p>
<p>Her church and other community leaders most certainly do NOT encourage victimhoood-and we’ve never encouraged it either. But we don’t sit and stand for mistreatment either.</p>
<p>“I am saying minority groups can’t have it both ways. They can’t say we’re individuals about whom you should have no pre-conceived notions whatsoever, and at the same time claim that they, as a whole group, are in an oppressed state in our society–a condition that produces certain deleterious effects like the lack of educational achievement.” – TheGFG</p>
<p>I think there’s two topics that you bring up here. One topic is that of ‘conditions that produce deleterious effects like the lack of educational achievement.’ This situation wouldn’t apply to Harvard students as oldmom said. It would apply to what the students see as the motivation for their project.</p>
<p>The other topic is that of how the individual is “cast” in terms of how the person is made to be presented to society. If a student tries to be an individual, certain cultural mind-frames remove their individuality and assign them to the “stereotypical role”, without concern as to what their personalities and capabilities actually are.</p>
<p>I think one of the objectives of this project is to make people aware that there is a certain degree of automatic “typecasting” going on, in which those identified in American culture as “black” are associated primarily to profoundly negative roles.</p>
<p>I wonder how much, in terms of life experiences and background (schooling, home state, religion, family life, etc.), this small group of black Harvard students have in common with one another? I highly doubt they are any more similar to one another than a same-sized group of white, Asian, or Hispanic kids, (who would also have likely experienced rude comments from their Harvard peers). And isn’t that their point? Don’t make any assumptions about us just because of our skin color? Indeed, the world has changed, and the experience of blacks in the country is not nearly as homogenous in nature as it was fifty years ago and people need to realize that.</p>
<p>That said and understood, via the project this particular group of Harvard kids have put aside their individual diversity and have revealed that they have chosen to identity themselves with a larger group defined by only one thing: skin color… They are seeing their experience as not just an everyman experience, but as the experience of a black person in prejudiced America. </p>
<p>However, once they’ve identified with the larger group of American blacks who suffer now and suffered historically from prejudice, they have a little problem. They need to make it clear they really don’t want to be associated with the WHOLE group of African-Americans–just the ones like them. They are insulted when a peer is surprised they don’t show any signs of historical oppression as far as certain socio-economic markers like dialect or poor educational background. </p>
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<p>IME and those of many other “foreign looking” minorities, asking where one comes from by itself isn’t necessarily an issue. It’s when folks like us state which town/city we’re from within the US as a reply and the questioner follows up with “Where are you REALLY from” that it becomes offensive on prying or other presumptuous grounds. </p>
<p>Especially when this question is rarely asked of those who aren’t “foreign looking” unless something else comes up, like a discussion of personal/family immigration accounts. </p>
<p>Incidentally, I had a HS history teacher who reacted harshly to us students after a discussion about Ellis Island’s role in the American immigration story and how she and her family were a part of it in the early-mid part of the 20th century. When several classmates asked about her/her family’s origins, she got really upset and told us that was “non of your business”. </p>
<p>And she wasn’t a visible “foreign looking” minority like the majority of our class, but from one of the European ethnic groups. </p>
<p>I agree with the poster up-thread who felt that racial categories are obsolete. So long as our societal institutions force us to distinguish ourselves based on skin color, we are going to have these problems. Gone are the days when a person’s features indicate anything consistent about them. There is no one white experience, or one black experience. There is such great diversity in all areas within our ethic groups, yet we separate people that way. We need to abandon these categories in our thinking because they are meaningless in modern America. But first they have to be removed from the census, from college applications, and from every other official document. </p>
<p>GFG, part of 1:53 is really good. Up to the last line of paragraph 2, where you presume the history somehow denies them their present day feelings. Why should they make it clear they are not speaking of the whole of African Americans? </p>
<p>I never thought they were. But so what if they, in any way, intended or not, end up drawing attention to this generalized distrust of Blacks? Do you really need them to dissociate with their race to make this palatable? </p>
<p>Does it even need to be palatable to you (generalized “you”) for it to be real? If this were Asian kids or the disabled, would you subject it to such qualifications? A group of disabled would have to very carefully state, we’re not speaking for all disabled? Just us, here at Harvard? And while they’re at it, comfort the rest of us that they didn’t get in on a sympathy vote?</p>
<p>I’m wondering why their effort makes so many uncomfortable and why they so easily turn it around on these kids. If you did note to a college that you found the Spanish materials unnecessary, would it be ok for them to dismiss you as whiny, some sort of activist or tell you to state whether you spoke for all Hispanics or just yourself?</p>
<p>Not to annoy anyone, but I found it rather brave.</p>
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<p>No, no, no, no, no! They are pointing out that other people identify them as part of a larger group defined by only one thing: skin color.</p>
<p>Why should they have to be spokespeople for their race? Are white people spokespeople for their race? Do Chinese-Americans have to speak for all Asians? Of course not. They are speaking about their experiences there at Harvard.</p>
<p>Yes, yes, yes, yes! Each of these students as individuals chose to view a personal encounter (or two) between him or herself and a white Harvard classmate (or two) and label that encounter as part of some global black experience that happened to them because they are members of a larger group. They turned what Morgan said to Simone along with what Peter said to Jerome into what white people say to black people. In so doing, they implicitly lumped a whole lot of uninvolved, individuals who share light skin color into a big group of prejudiced whites to which these few insensitive louts belong. Without knowing more, it’s hard to determine if this is fair. But most of us agree that a number of these comments could just as easily have been made to anyone who wasn’t black, hence the questioning of the framing of this as some larger racial issue instead of an individual rudeness issue. </p>
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<p>This explains why only black people were included.</p>
<p>I don’t see anything that implies that only white people made the comments quoted.</p>
<p>chose to view a personal encounter (or two) between him or herself and a white Harvard classmate (or two) and label that encounter as part of some global black experience that-. Ok, I guess you don’t get it. And I didn’t see anywhere that this was a personal encounter or two or a white peer or two. I think that’s your thinking. It was 60+ students, btw, willing to stand up and note.</p>
<p>You are working hard to diminish this, GFG, categorize it, along with them. That’s not coming across as I think you intend it.</p>
<p>ps. I know some won’t grasp how Asian American kids would ever do this (some have.) After all, “we” know all those Asian kid are working on their SATs, in the lab or practicing their music, right? That’s stereotyping, too. </p>
<p>I did not make myself clear, lookingforward. I didn’t mean I think these students need to disassociate themselves from others of their race. I meant that that’s what they themselves are actually doing by being so offended at some of the comments. It’s a tough sell for these privileged students to choose to identify with a larger group of victimized black people when they want to present their individual experiences as a universal black experience of prejudice. But then, when they are associated with a subset of black culture that THEY (not me, they) don’t really like or relate to–but that is an expression of black culture that a non-black classmate may have been most familiar with until now–they are angry and offended. So for them it’s OK to see the plight of urban blacks as tied to racism and claim to share the experience of racism, but for heaven’s sake, no one can make the mistake of thinking THEY, the Harvard students, are anything at all like that subset of black culture in how they talk, act or think. That’s insulting to them. They act as though they are ashamed of their own people. </p>
<p>I think you’re reading a whole lot into the part of the project you saw, GFG. You don’t know that these students are privileged at all. If you are talking about yes, being at Harvard at all, that’s a privilege most college student don’t get. But for all you know some of them are 1st gen, or are low-income, etc. Maybe instead of some weird, desperate attempt at something you’re imagining, they’re actually reporting what they’re finding, even at Harvard, just as they did in their prior lives. </p>
<p>I find it odd that you think simply reporting what they’ve experienced is trying to “identify with a larger group of victimized black people”. You have no idea whether or not they “don’t like or relate to” the “subset of black culture” (and what, pray tell, would THAT be?? You don’t know if they’re angry or offended. You don’t even know if they’re “urban” or not. </p>
<p>I don’t see anyone being ashamed. I see people telling what they’ve experienced. Chances are, no matter WHERE they’re from, what “subset” they belong to (to use your words), they’ve heard stuff like this before. I know we certainly have and we’re not part of the “subset” you’re alluding to. There’s an ugly undertone to what you’re saying here-it’s not unlike some of the comments in the students’ presentations.</p>
<p>I see a lot of White privilege on here…</p>
<p>^You say that on every thread. </p>
<p>What does that phrase mean to you? </p>
<p>Actually I think it has been a very productive discussion. Posters have expressed their points of view in a reasonable and unemotional manner. Good conversation.</p>
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<p>It’s the new format…there is a complaint thread on this issue 8-| </p>
<p>I think it looks like a provocative project, and Id like to see similar projects on other issues as well.</p>
<p>sseamom, you really don’t seem to understand what I’m getting at. I’ll make one last attempt to explain. Sorry it’s lengthy. Imagine a comment, very similar to those they have on their signs, gets made to some individual of whatever skin color. Let’s say Sally mentions she’s from Virginia, and Sarah comments, “You don’t talk Southern,” or “You don’t sound Southern.” Sally may hear this a lot. Sally may even be tired of hearing this and be irritated that so many people think she should sound a certain way just because she’s from a particular region. She may consider Sarah to be ignorant and lacking in wide experience with Southerners. However, while Sally may be annoyed, I doubt very much she will feel slighted, offended or insulted. We can envision she might answer in one of these ways: by ignoring Sarah, by saying something noncommittal like “Oh, you don’t think so?” or perhaps she will offer some applicable explanation, like, “Well, I lived in New York until I was ten years old and then moved to VA,” or “I’m from Arlington, and we don’t speak with much of a drawl there.” </p>
<p>Now, new scenario. Sarah says to Vanessa, who is African-American, “You don’t sound black,” or “You don’t talk black.” Understandably, Vanessa might be annoyed and for some of the same reasons as Sally above–that people make certain assumptions about her based on just one fact about her. Still, Vanessa could respond, “Really, what do you mean by that?” or offer an applicable explanation like “Well, I grew up in X and I talk just like everyone else who lives there,” and forget all about it. Yes, Sarah showed herself to be ignorant and lacking in a wide experience of African-Americans in addition to Southerners, or she wouldn’t have mistakenly expected them to all sound the same way. The fact that Sarah is basing her assumptions on skin color in this case, rather than geography, could make it touchier. However, this type of encounter does exactly what diversity on campus is supposed to do: expose students to other young people from a variety of backgrounds, thereby enhancing education and mutual understanding. If Vanessa chooses the second response posited above, she educates Sarah and some ignorance has been eliminated from campus.</p>
<p>But Vanessa chooses to view Sarah’s comment as OFFENSIVE enough and specifically PREJUDICED enough against people of color such that participating in a campus MOVEMENT is in order. Why? Because the comment was deemed to be insulting, and therefore part of a larger pattern of racism. It seems to me that for “You don’t sound black” to be insulting, as opposed to just neutrally inexperienced and thus undeserving of a larger reaction, is if the type of speech Vanessa thinks Sarah expected to hear come from her mouth is not a type of speech Vanessa views very favorably. It seems to me Vanessa is saying, “OMG. I’m a Harvard student! Can you believe that people think I’m going to talk like the black people from West Philly they hear interviewed on the news?” </p>