<p>Now that I think about it, I guess I could imagine a few circumstances where you might have to cease contact with a child. A while back, a CC poster related the ongoing saga of her daughter, who I believe may have borderline personality disorder. This adult child was so toxic that she was tearing the entire family apart and really making life a living hell for Mom specifically. If memory serves, Mom had to cut off contact with this daughter, but I believe it was intended to be temporary until daughter would agree to get help. While reading about this situation, I remember thinking it probably was the best strategy given the horrific, disruptive (Mom works from home and daughter was making these awful scenes in front of clients on a regular basis), and poisonous behavior of the daughter. It was pretty heartbreaking to read about this and the mother was just at her absolute breaking point.</p>
<p>This was not a child who had broken the law, however.</p>
<p>woops…when I say “not a chance in hell” I meant ----Not a chance in hell that I would cut off communication or support.
That did not sound right(sorry)!! :(</p>
<p>I would absolutely keep in touch, unless, as a PP noted, it seemed that me doing so wasn’t what my child wanted. That’s clearly not the case here, Faux. Your love and loyalty to your son, and his feelings for you come clearly through every post you write. That love, loyalty and support is what will help him get back on his feet when he gets out.</p>
<p>I do believe in tough love in an lot of cases. But Tough Love doesn’t mean you stop loving your child, or even that you stop spending time with them. It means you don’t protect them from the real consequences of their behavior. If you stole a helicopter, or bribed a judge, or lied on the witness stand to get/keep him out of prison, I’d tell you that he needs tough love, but you aren’t doing that. You’re standing by him as he gets his life back together. Something he needs. I suspect you need to see him too. I know my heart would be breaking in your situation, and I hope that visiting him will make it a little easier.</p>
<p>I’m sorry you’re going through this. I hope it gets a little easier.</p>
<p>"Sometimes the “toughest” love is the kind that looks someone who has made a terrible judgement/mistake/choice in the eye and says “I still love you. I am here. I will be here”. The kind of love that endures all things, hopes all things. Endures commentary from parents who have no clue what you are experiencing.</p>
<p>So yes, I would visit as often as I were allowed. Life is rarely one thing or another, so you gotta allow for love AND disapproval, support AND boundaries. I might change the locks on the silverware drawer, or not keep cash around, but you can be prudent and sensible and still love your kid."</p>
<p>^^This. Exactly right, Greenbutton. Even if it were a violent crime. I do not have to condone my child’s actions or make excuses for them. Still my kid. I would still love my kid and make sure they knew it - no matter what.</p>
<p>Three years ago, my nephew (then 21) spent six months in jail. My sister, his stepdad and his sister visited every week. It was the only way they got through the process. They needed to see him as much as he wanted to see them. Love the kid, hate the behavior. My sister could not afford bail or an attorney, and my dad refused to put up bail. He was ultimately released under a first time offenders deal (time served, fines, probation), finally got his GED and was able to get a job.</p>
<p>If you want to see him, go. None of us is walking in your specific pair of shoes. And take care of yourself, too.</p>
<p>I truly believe, and studies back this up, that having functional, supportive people on the outside help the person inside the prison to get on the right track and stay on it after they are released. That is the role I would try to play for my son, should I ever find myself in your situation.</p>
<p>I equate ceasing contact with a child in jail because it is against my “morals” with the Amish practice of shunning. It’s against my morals to shun someone because they didn’t behave the way I wanted them to. If it were a horrific crime, I’m not sure what I’d do, but it would be very difficult to turn my back on my child.</p>
<p>I believe that parent’s love is unconditional. But if you love somebody, don’t you want to see them? I do not have anything that I would consider “morals”. I just do the best I could to make myself happy. It includes being in touch with those who I love. So, every person have to ask him/herself what makes them happy. I also believe that being unhappy is a major sin. My believes might not be everybody’s believe though.</p>
<p>I am the person who sent the PM causing this discussion and I’m sorry that is has added to your pain FM but as I prefaced in my PM, I was giving an alternative POV.</p>
<p>I also had FM and her son’s back UNTIL I read her post that he was sorry for being caught but not for the crime. That is a red flag to me.</p>
<p>Short story–brother is an alcoholic and my parents did a lot to support him. Then he messed up again and was sent to jail (served 18 months). My parents didn’t go and visit or send money etc. He continued to drink post jail and at one point moved in with my mom (dad had died by now) to start over. She said the first time I smell alcohol you are gone. He did and she did and he now will tell you that when she threw him out that’s when he knew HE had a problem and needed help. He has been sober for decades now and owns a house, has a job etc.</p>
<p>OTOH, my cousin is also an alcoholic and my aunt has bought her cars, houses and even call SS and had her kids taken from her because ‘then she will wake up and stop drinking and stealing’ It never worked. My cousin still will tell you that her problems are because her mom didn’t do enough for her when she was a kid and she has no choice in life. She is currently serving 15 years for stabbing man. My aunt thought it was terrible that my mom threw my brother out after one time (should have given him another chance).</p>
<p>My daughter was expelled from college due to a drinking incident and I told her she could come home this FIRST time but if she ever did this again then she was on her own. (We did counseling).</p>
<p>So my issue for the OP and others to discuss is how do you get through to someone who is not remorseful for the crime? Tough love means you still love your kid but when they demonstrate that they are not sorry for living values that are different from your own what do you do?</p>
<p>I want to address this “remorse” issue. Remorse is an emotion and often not controllable. You can do something that you know is wrong, be upset that you are not sorry about it but truly not be sorry. I remember one mother forcing apologies out of her kid that the kid truly did not feel. A lot of us do not feel remorse and are even a bit proud and glad about something that we know was a wrong thing to do. When you are talking about emotions, desired, feelings, they are not always controllable. It’s whether we act upon it that counts, not how we feel or think about it. i’ve been angry enough to visualized smacking some people in the face in my life, but don’t do it. Doesn’t mean I don’t think it. See a hot looking bod, you can get the lust, but that doesn’t mean you act on it. See the money, and you want to take it.</p>
<p>The OP’s son is being honest about his feelings. He is making it very clear that he is not sorry that he did X. Might want to do X again. In being honest with himself that doing X is something that he wants to do, that tempts him, but that the possible consequences are terrible, he is working his way into striking a balance in life. I know someone who craves his drugs, cigarettes and liquor every time his thoughts go that way, and its the possible consequences that keep him away from the stuff. Still loves having taken the stuff. </p>
<p>There are those with the crocodile tears that will blip out the sorrys and whatever is needed to be said to get the pity and maybe a lighter sentence. The OP is being honest with his mother right now as to how he feels. To make a consequence over the way someone feels is not a good idea, as it basically shuts off that source of info. You can’t work with a problem that isn’t on the table. The OP’s son has it on the table where he is in terms of how he views things and to get him back as a contributing member of society who is not going to do illegal and harmful things, his penchant for doing them can be addressed. Most of us have to learn to curb our feelings and desires as they cross over what are our societal boundaries and what is legal. Changing how we FEEL is something that can take a long time and is not entirely under our control. How we ACT is something very much more controllable. Those who cannot control how they act regardless of how they feel are those we have to lock away in order to keep people safe. So I don’t care if someone is not sorry, or has certain feelings. It behooves those who have adverse thoughts to keep them to themselves in most situations, since no one will kow. But how someone acts, yes, that is something very much of interest to all of us and to society itself.</p>
<p>I agree with others who advocate maintaining contact. You can love, support, and communicate with your child while still disapproving of what they did and holding them accountable for their actions.</p>
<p>Busyparent, thank you for coming back and explaining. I think it’s an important point to this discussion. When do you support or not support your children? I also remember when fauxmaven said that her son was sorry he was caught but not that he broke the law and I thought that it was a red flag. </p>
<p>It’s hard to say what I would or would not do in this situation. I had a friend who kicked her D out of her house when she was in high school. I would never do that, never, never, never. But she did and she had her reasons ( ones I did not agree with). We don’t know the particulars of what fauxmaven’s S did (nor do we need nor want to know, that is your business) but I could not make a decision until I was in that situation and knew what happened. It’s so very personal.</p>
<p>Fauxmaven you want to visit and support your S. I support your decision.</p>
<p>Also, Busyparent, there are those whose parents throw them out and they end up in the morgue in short order with a another just like them whose parents are enabling and keep taking them back who finally get it. There is not this rock bottom or last straw that is magically there for every and anybody. This is something that has to be navigated on a personal basis.</p>
<p>I had some ultimatums for my kids too, but they were driven by my own tolerance, nothing else. Someone else maybe would have thrown in the towel much sooner, and others maybe not at all. I’ve seen both, and I sure as heck don’t see any magic formula. I know that sometimes you have to treat yourself too, or you can stress yourself and your family out. Fauxmaven here needs to somehow maintain a balance for her sanity, her family–SO and the other kids and her son who is in jail. Only she can feel the shifts in this balance, and one can only hopes she can move with them. The only thing she can do is to be alert to these shifts and try to move in tandem and hope for the best.</p>
<p>I think Busyparent brings up something to think about. There is a story I read somewhere that the moral was as long as we as parents keep throwing pillows under our children to break their falls they will never know how to get up and take care of themselves. That when we start making them experience the consequences of their actions do they stand a chance of getting better.
I would suggest that the OP try some Al Anon meetings. Even if her S is not an alcoholic it can be a welcoming place. Find a sponsor who has a child who has gone to prison. Work through the steps. The program goal is to help you deal with your pain not how to fix your loved one. You have no power over your S’s life. The choice to change is his. What might help you to figure out is how much your want to support him and under what conditions. There is a small piece of literature called Detaching with Love. In Al Anon you will learn that you can be happy even if your S is not taking a straight path.
Another thought is that you also have a H and other children. Don’t make the mistake of focusing so much on your S that you breed resentment in your other relationships.
OP appreciate your S’s honestly. You don’t have to agree with him. It is early in the game and hopefully with some counseling and time for reflection your S will have a change of opinion. Set some boundaries with you S. Don’t do anything that you are not comfortable with. If conversations take a direction your don’t agree with, say so and talk about something else. Try not to revolve your life around making your S’s stay more comfortable.</p>
<p>I told D once (can’t remember the context) that I would always love her, no matter what she ever did. I told her I may not approve of what she did, and there may be consequences from me or others. But that’s not the same as not loving her. And IMO part of love is keeping in contact.</p>
<p>But I haven’t walked in your shoes, faux. I’m sure it’s easier said than done.</p>
<p>Most of us have a tolerance point where we just don’t want to deal. The OP’s son went to prison on a non violet felony. What if he had gotten off? What about the kid/young audlut who you have to bail out of jail for some non felony misdeed? What if this is the nth time he’s done this? What if it were a violent felony? A sex offender case? A hate crime? A type of case that brings out the village with torches and pitchforks? What if he’s sorry? What if he isn’t, but understands it’s wrong and says he will not go there again? What if he says he might? </p>
<p>I have no answers to these questions and people have different places where they draw the line. A lot of those who do the most heinous crimes have parents too, and my heart goes out to those parents who have to make these decisions.</p>
<p>The hypothetical son of the OP’s queston, and the real son, are in prison. Prison. I’m not aware that even the most loving mother can throw a pillow under her son in prison. The criminal justice system has decided what legal consequences he should pay for his crime…The people in charge of the system could probably tell you what percentage of the inmates experience genuine remorse while inside. I would certainly be in favor of providing love and support to help give him strength and comfort as he pays the legal consequences. </p>
<p>If anyone is interested in the Christian perspective:</p>
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<p>I don’t purport to be deeply familiar with other religions, but my guess is that forgiveness is emphasized in most, as being healthy for the person doing the forgiving (whether or not the person forgiven feels remorse.)</p>
<p>–‘some end up in the morgue and some who were enabled change’ Agree. if only we had a crystall ball.</p>
<p>–‘other family members are affected’–yes I was the sibling who saw the anguish and thought “I will never put my parents through this” but others might say “gee the way to get some attention around here is to break the law” Penelope Leach said to reward the good behavior and ignore the bad.</p>
<p>–like the post re: son is being honest. I had not thought of that and like that thought. I would still lean towards a conversation along the line of “I will love you to my last breath and I appreciate your honesty about not feeling remorse, but that is a red flag to me and I worry that you will go down this road again. I think we both need time to reflect on where we want to go in life and what kind of people we want to hang out with. I’m not going to visit until …so that we both have time to think”</p>
<p>–tough love-I think it’s easy to enable because it serves OUR need/ego/self image/guilt to be loving, supportive kind etc but tough love to me means doing what we think is best for the OTHER person who has been given a major time out. Did we stop and give cookies and hugs when we put our little ones into time out before?</p>
<p>I like the concept of “hate the sin and not the sinner” (from Mohandas Gandhi’s 1929 autobiography).</p>
<p>I also like the message OPs son will get from knowing his mom hates what he did, but seeing that she is still willing to stand by him and love him all the same. He’ll have something everybody wants - unconditional love.</p>