<p>That is the crux of the issue. It’s not that kids should act perfect. Kids will be kids. It’s easy enough for parents to address the issue of their kids disturbing others at the time it is happening. The fact that some parents choose to look the over way speaks volumes about their lack of consideration for their fellow human beings. </p>
<p>I really feel for parents when they are caught up in a situation where they have little control (e.g., a screaming baby on a plane). OTOH, there are so many times when the parents could do something and simply chooses not to act. For example…</p>
<p>-Baby or toddler fussy in restaurant…pick it up and walk it outside. My husband and I rarely ate at the same time in a restaurant until son was old enough to sit quietly the entire meal. </p>
<p>-Don’t take a child who isn’t able to sit quietly through an hour long meal to a fancy restaurant. There’s really no need to. We found it far more enjoyable to take our son to places where there were lots of families with small kids rather than trying to keep son quiet and occupied throughout a meal. For a while there, we were regulars at Chuck E. Cheese.</p>
<ul>
<li>They make kid’s movies for a reason. Because kids find them entertaining and are more likely to pay attention and they are less likely to disturb other kids and their families (who are more understanding in these situations). *However *, even at a kid’s movie, you need to remove a child who is being disruptive.</li>
</ul>
<p>IMHO, there is never a good reason to take a small child to a movie that is more adult-themed. Hire a baby-sitter or leave one parent at home while the other takes the older kids or goes with a friend. I go to the movies by myself all the time.</p>
<p>-Plane. It is truly miserable for everyone when a child screams or cries for long periods of time but I know that is one of those situations that’s very difficult to control. However, it’s not difficult to control a kid who is kicking the back of another passenger’s seat or standing on their own seat and disturbing passengers behind or in front of them.</p>
<p>And if you ever want to wade into a very heated discussion about whether kids belong on an expensive cruise, hop on over to cruisecriticdotcom. There are threads over there that go on for years and people get downright ugly about the whole thing. Apparently, there are people who are not amused when they spend tens of thousands of dollars on a cruise only to have it ‘ruined’ by people bringing their obnoxious kids on board. :)</p>
<p>I don’t think I’ve ever gotten over younger children, and now that I’m in full-on lust to become a grandmother, I suppose it will be another 20 years before it happens, if it ever does. One of the best perks in my job, which is in a municipal building where lots of kiddie enrichment activities are held, is seeing the toddlers navigate their way past my office. It’s floor-to-ceiling windows, so I can see them coming and have been known to go into the hallway to chat with their parents. (I try to be appropriate and not annoy or terrify them - both the parents and the kids.)</p>
<p>If I had paid tens of thousands of dollars for a cruise, I wouldn’t allow bad parenting to ruin my good time. Cruise ships are big - I’d find something to do where someone wasn’t having a tantrum. Happy kiddie noises have never bugged me. I do think that some people are hyper-sensitive about sharing space with young kids because they’re expecting the kid to act up. I’ll always remember the time I boarded a plane with my then 2-month old. The guy I was assigned to sit next to behaved like a real jerk, rolling his eyes and clucking and tutting and finally saying, in the most condescending way possible, “Look, I’m going to move over there.” All before takeoff, and all while the kid was out like a light.</p>
<p>I agree with your post momlive.
I had a child who became easily overstimulated and I left the grocery store many times at the checkout counter- so I have a lot of sympathy for both parents & kids and am even slower to judge people about their situation than in the days when I was running on three hours of sleep.</p>
<p>I still love kids and am even more cognizant now of how short a time they are actually children, so not much bothers me except when parents aren’t paying enough attention to their safety & well being, including taking them to inappropriate movies or restaurants.</p>
<p>I probably should have been more clear on this. I don’t think it’s the fact that they’re on the cruise that’s a big problem, it’s more the shore excursion where you are usually on a bus or in a museum trying to listen to the tour guide. Or at the formal dinners in the evening. It’s never bothered me on a cruise. In fact, when I think about it it’s not like I run into badly behaving kids all that much these days but when you do it can be annoying. Again, I don’t blame the kids at all. Nor do I blame the parents for the way the kids are acting. I blame the parent’s lack of initiative to address the problem at the moment it is occurring. I see many parents who do deal with it and do it well. It’s just a few parents who prefer to ignore it.</p>
<p>And it’s very true - adults can and do behave just as rudely.</p>
<p>ETA - BTW, my husband is one of those people who has zero problem saying to a parent ‘you need to make your child stop kicking the back of my seat’ or ‘you need to keep your kid quiet so the rest of us can watch the movie.’ Usually, the parent will look really startled, like it never occurred to them their child was disturbing others.</p>
<p>After experiencing mine, I have so much tolerance. I can’t remember the last time a noisy or too energetic kid bothered me. But, I also can’t remember the last time I encountered more than a brief moment of that here- in a restaurant, movie, the mall or outside. </p>
<p>Mine grew up to be fine young gals. But, it was tough. Once, in the market line, they were being so awful that lady ahead of me kept giving them odd looks- I thought she must think I was the world’s worst mom. It was humiliating and I couldn’t walk out, couldn’t yell. Just as I was about to apologize, she smiled and said, “They remind me of my son at that age- only, I think he was worse.” Tension broken. I was so grateful that, as often as I can, I return that favor.</p>
<p>I too am annoyed by misbehaving children with clueless parents. I try to ignore them as much as possible. I try to notice and reward good behavior instead.</p>
<p>At restaurants where I have an extra coupon (I often print two), I will quietly enjoy my meal with friends and family. If I notice a table with well-behaved children, I’ll stop by on my way out to compliment the parents on their children’s behavior and thank them for doing a great job. Then I’ll offer them the coupon, which they are typically thrilled to have. “Buy one entree, get another at half price” is a nice little bonus for a family that wasn’t expecting it, and the whole thing creates good feelings all the way around.</p>
<p>I had so much help when I was a mom, I try to now give back. It takes a village…I am nigh on 65 and the older I get the more fun I have with my little ones in the library. Yes, fun. They are beautiful, time is short, I am near retirement from schools, and I am loving it! Grandma hood is around the corner. And on it goes…</p>
<p>frazzled1, I remember getting on an international flight with S1, just under a year old. We had the window seat and H was in the middle seat. The woman in the aisle seat got on the plane LATE, (they held the plane for her) and immediately started complaining in a very loud voice about how she couldn’t tolerate a baby on board. Steward told to sit down, there were no other seats, flight was taking off. She fussed and fumed. Finally sat down. At wheels up, S1 nursed and went right to sleep. Slept the whole flight until we were landing, when he nursed again. Never one sound out of him the whole flight. The woman on the other hand, complained to everyone around her about letting children on board, had to adjust her seat every three minutes, had the light on, the light out, called the steward constantly, complained about everything, needed a blanket, but not that blanket, etc., etc. As we were deplaning the woman in the seat behind me said to me in a very load voice “Your baby was very well behaved – UNlike some people” and she gave the woman a very direct stare. Everyone around us burst into applause.</p>
<p>I don’t mind little kids. I love watching the 3 and 4 year olds – they can be fascinated by a puddle or a bird. When I hear a kid screaming in the grocery store, I remember the way my kids used to scream when they were just overwrought and exhausted – maybe one errand too many. I make silly faces at babies. I look back at childhood – mine, my kids, everyones – it is such a magical time.</p>
<p>Having said all that, it does really bother me if someone is kicking the back of my seat…</p>
<p>My oldest had colic and I was always VERY aware that no one else wanted to hear her cry, especially since we lived in a 3rd floor walk up apt! I would do almost anything to calm her down. After that was over, she was a great baby in public. I took her out to lunch with my mom at least twice a week, then D2 after her. I never put up with shenanigans. Both my kids had 1 public tantrum (I remember D2’s was over a stuffed Molly from The Big Comfy Couch in a NoodleKadoodle store.) Apparently the mom reaction of stopping, watching, laughing at them and saying “seriously, that’s not going to work” didn’t sit well with my kids. We didn’t take our kids with us on our rare grown up nights out, and I certainly wouldn’t have taken my kids to an inappropriate movie. </p>
<p>I have the utmost sympathy when I am out and someone is dealing with an obviously overtired or ill feeling child. But when kids run amuck because parents can’t say no, that’s a different story. We have 2 kids on our block whose behavior even makes my D’s eyes roll. As D2 (age 16) says “man, do they need Nanny 911!”</p>
<p>I am apparently missing the grandma gene (along with the crying at college drop off gene) as I have no big desire to see my kids as moms; I mean I hope if they want to that they will, it’s just not about me. I don’t intend on changing my life once they have kids as no one changed their schedules to help DH & I with our girls; our first time away from them was this past summer when they were both at programs. I’ve been a caretaker though in some form since I was 17, so I’m looking to finally being “off.”</p>
<p>there does seem to be a difference in parenting young kids these days, **less basic expectation of socially acceptable behavior, **as if parents are worried they’ll hurt the’re kids’ feelings by telling them to stop kicking the seat in front of them, or too apathetic to take their crying babies out. maybe this coincides with civility in general going downhill…</p>
<p>Yes, that is true…and this has been a problem for awhile. I do remember being shocked to see a friend’s child go up to our VCR (years ago) and just start pushing buttons and the parents said NOTHING. I distracted the child away, but made a note to myself to keep an eye on junior since the parents weren’t.</p>
<p>I adore kids…I really do. I gush over every baby I see (and secretly want to hold every one of them.) I’m crazy about dogs and cats, too. </p>
<p>I keep bubble gum in my purse, and when I see a little one crying or whining, I’ll blow a huge bubble…that usually distracts them into silence…and giggles.</p>
<p>But, I don’t understand why many so-called modern parents seems to have a fear of saying “no” to their kids and teach them some proper social skills…like you don’t go into someone’s home and just open their fridge or pantry. You don’t ask others for money (that one always shocks me…unless the child is quite young). And, you don’t just touch everything in sight (makes me wonder how these families keep their electronics in good shape.)</p>
<p>I have always been a fan of Dr. John Rosemond who doesn’t support any of these more lenient parenting models. I began reading him many decades ago…long before I had kids…when his column was called, “Bringing up Baby.” It isn’t called that anymore, but his column can be found in many papers.</p>
<p>Love Rosemond. I’d still read him, though our girls are college age- but, our papers don’t carry him anymore.</p>
<p>Btw, years ago, a friend had 5 kids within about 8 years and was the ultimate lenient sort. She purposely let them scream through adult get-togethers, dinners, etc. Her idea was that if they didn’t get attention for bad behavior, they’d get some message. All I can say is, darned it, they all turned out to be remarkably well-behaved, goal-oriented young adults. </p>
<p>Someone commented that “it takes a village.” Wow, that was so true for us. All sorts of involved people- family, teachers, neighbors, friends, the folks at the local pizza place and stores, etc- sharing in their learning. Grateful.</p>
<p>Dr. John Rosemond - there’s a name from out of the past I can’t say I remember fondly. I actually broke up a friendship with someone, in part, because I couldn’t bear her constant “well, Dr. Rosemond says …” I pretty much knew that, whatever it was, I was going to disagree. And I mean deep-down, from the depths of my soul disagree. </p>
<p>I believe in giving young kids lots of attention - he didn’t. I believe in seeing things from the kids’ POV; he very definitely believed that kids should learn to see things from the adult POV, and darned early, too. He believed that the parents’ relationship should come before the parent-child relationship; I believed it wasn’t necessary to choose which was the more important, or which came first. So not a lot of common ground with Dr. John. One of my major problems with him was that he insisted that people who raised their kids differently must be overly permissive and would regret the error of their ways eventually. I particularly disliked the sarcastic tone with which he referred to his own children - at least one of whom, if I remember correctly, led him an exhausting chase throughout adolescence. </p>
<p>Interestingly, I’ve seen considerate, independent, successful young adults result from both parenting styles, and all variations in between.</p>
<p>I work with little kids every day …teaching 3 yr olds at a preschool.<br>
It’s amazing how many different behaviors you see in a room of ten three year olds. It can drive you nuts if you let it.
My S1 was the best behaved little boy you ever wanted to see. My S2 was the kid who made the teacher’s hair stand on end.
Same home,same parents,same upbringing…different results. </p>
<p>And yes, when I’m not at work I don’t care to spend my spare time with little kids. I stopped volunteering in the Sunday preschool classes at our church when I took the teaching job (also located at our church). I know that sounds awful but I have to have a break on weekends.</p>
<p>He believed that the parents’ relationship should come before the parent-child relationship;</p>
<p>Yes…Dr. John Rosemond believes in what looks like a triangle with parents at the two top points…and the child in the lower point.</p>
<p>His position is that parents should be a united front in parenting (so that one child doesn’t play one parent against the other) and that the parents need to protect their relationship so that when the child is grown, the couple is still a couple. </p>
<p>Not odd at all. Of course, in a dysfunctional marriage all bets can be off. lol</p>
<p>He does often side with moms who write in because he does think that mom have more “kid sense” when it comes to rules, establishing bed times, routines, etc…and he’s found that dads can sometimes be too lenient in those areas…and kids need routine/structure. </p>
<p>*
I believe in giving young kids lots of attention - he didn’t.*</p>
<p>I don’t agree with that. He just doesn’t support the idea that all of a parents’ time should be spent on being taxi drivers to 15 events per week. I didn’t agree with his position that parents should limit their child’s ECs to one event per week, because that’s not really practical. But, I agree with him that some parents spend all their non-work time ferrying kids from practice to practice creating a very chaotic life.</p>
<p>*I particularly disliked the sarcastic tone with which he referred to his own children - at least one of whom, if I remember correctly, led him an exhausting chase throughout adolescence. *</p>
<p>I don’t recall any sarcastic tones about his own kids, nor do I recall him having any big issues with his own kids. They’ve grown up quite nicely. Dr. R has a son and daughter…the son is a pilot and the D is a SAHM. </p>
<p>You may be confusing his kids’ teen years with his OWN teen years. He went thru a rebellious stage (wasn’t getting along with his step-dad) and had some issues before “growing up.”</p>
<p>No, I remember specifically his columns about his difficulties with his then-teen son. (Of course, everyone has tales to tell about their kids’ teen misadventures, and their own.) At the time I thought, “Why should I listen to this guy when his own kid is giving him such a hard time?” But, predictably, every anecdote ended with Dr. R’s viewpoint being vindicated. </p>
<p>Another thing about him that got my back up was his dismissal of other psychologists. According to his wikipedia entry ( [John</a> Rosemond - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia](<a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Rosemond]John”>John Rosemond - Wikipedia) ), he still begins lectures by announcing that psychology has done more harm than good to the American family. When he’d do this in his column, my feeling was - if you’ve got a parenting column because you’ve got a degree, why diss the degree? If you’re writing a column because you’re a dad - well, I already know a lot of smart dads.</p>
<p>Different strokes, of course. He obviously worked for a lot of people. Penelope Leach was much more up my alley at the time. I’d like to think that his wikipedia entry is exaggerated. Because if not, I dislike him more now than I did then. Jmho.</p>
<p>martina99: I’ve been having that nightmare for about 15 years now. About every 6 months, if I’m particularly stressed out I wake up thinking “arrrgh! I’m pregnant.” But I’m not Phew! </p>
<p>I remember liking Penelope Leach and T. Berry Brazelton. I also remember the “Ferber method” for sleep training that we finally broke down & used after the colic months were over; I was so stressed out & convinced we were going to be evicted. </p>
<p>I was a little crunchy when my kids were little & breastfed for quite some time, and did some attachment parenting. Since I was always with them, I think I was pretty much in tune with them & that helped keep expectations & reality in line (most of the time.) </p>
<p>Almost all the kids we know who are “out of control” have parents who, despite whether they were “yellers” or lenient, would capitulate and give in because it was easier in the short term rather than say no and stick with it. Can’t expect that your 15 year old is going to listen when you can’t get their 4 year old version to stay in bed or set the table, KWIM?</p>
<p>Well, DH hated even the mention of his name. He thought JR was to rules-oriented, I guess.</p>
<p>LOL…hence the reason why Dr. R often sides with moms…he knows that the dads are often too lenient. I know that I could never depend on my H to get the kids to bed on time when I was not home. Most of the time it wasn’t really that my H didn’t like the “rule”…he didn’t like the “work”…it was easier to let them stay up and let me deal with the whole bedtime routine when I got home. lol </p>
<p>And, god-forbid…how many divorced moms dread when the (single) ex has the kids for the weekend or summer…knowing that most routines fly out the window…simply because dad doesn’t want to be bothered.</p>
Phew! </p>