Immigrant Rallies

<p>I meant to address my comments about tax withholding largely to the day laborers and other typically urban jobs. We don’t have very many orchards in Manhattan. And we all know about parents who don’t pay the taxes of their immigrant nannies. Remember “U.S. Attorney General” Zoe Baird?</p>

<p>About your overtly personal criticism, as a child of the Great Northwest, I somewhat familiar with Washington’s role as a provider of jobs to immigrant workers in the orchards. Love those Wenatchee apples! Washington’s state government deserves praise for its oversight of farm laborers.</p>

<p>Neverthelss, I believe that my point about economics still applies. I’ll augment your point about extremely hard and labor intensive jobs to butress my own opinion. Commercial harvesting of shellfish in the Berring Sea is a relatively unskilled job that is quite hard and dangerous, yet the high pay means there is no lack of job applicants. And I am not talking about mom-and-pop operations. American citizens fill the crew jobs on the fishing ships.</p>

<p>Tenisghs</p>

<p>To some extent, NOLA is a poor example, if we waited for the 40 hour week to fix the Gulf Coast, then we will just all slide into the sea, or rot down or get eaten up by the Formosan termites, because it isn’t fixable in 40 hour weeks. Oh, wait, maybe construction work rarely went by 40 hour weeks anyway?
Farm workers would probably be a better example, but i will leave that to Mini. I don’t have an answer, but i do have an argument (and by the way, I am the child of a UMWA family, so I do know about the GOOD that unions do), and that is if people are not being exploited, and are working in a safe manner, then why can’t we allow some degree of competition? Notive I didn’t say rampant unbridled competition, which is what is operative in the case of the illegal construction workers in NOLA. ALthough, as Mini points out, unbridled rampant competition is working in favor of those same construction workers as they are making way above minimum wage. Has anyone asked them if they feel exploited? I think they only feel exploited by the House of Reps.</p>

<p>Poor people are always exploited. Nothing new under the sun. Under the Bush guest worker program, workers (not from Mexico, but from China and the Philippines and the Middle East) will be exploited by unscrupulous labor contractors who will have complete control over their fate (and they will have no place to go.) It will make the situation of the contract laborers in Dubai, living in the desert, look like a picnic. But the Prez’s buddies will get very, very rich.</p>

<p>Contrast that with my community, where I know at least two undocumented families who own restaurants and employ about 75-80 people, send their kids to college, pay incomes taxes, Social Security, property taxes, and one family is supporting about 30 folks back home, and building a big house there so they can retire. Or our former head of treatment services whose dad (undocumented) owns a bakery, a landscaping service, and a gas station (he arrived as an apple picker.)</p>

<p>It is true that undocumented workers don’t go on Alaskan fishing boats that pass into international waters, and are inspected upon their return. I wonder why…</p>

<p>Mini is making a very important distinction in this debate - workers who get here under their own steam, whether or not they have any intentions of staying forever, and those who are brought here as virtual slaves under deplorable conditions.</p>

<p>Part of why this debate is so fierce, and so hard to get your mind around, is that we are talking about so many incredibly complex interwoven things - crime and border security vs the American dream vs thousands of psople who don’t want to give up their lives in Mexico, they are just financing them through working in the North. I’m not sure that guest worker program immediately equals unscrupulous labor contractors, but I am concerned that if we don’t enforce the laws better - against employers, against the workers, and most of all against the “importers” and smugglers, we won’t have accomplished a thing. that’s what bothers me about all the proposed pieces of legislation - none of them seem to have a workable plan of enforcement, and we see where chronic non-enforcement gets us. By the way, I think the border fence is the most lame brain idea of all, but that’s just me.</p>

<p>To you xenophobes…take it from your fellow conservative pundit, Krauthammer:</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/06/AR2006040601380.html?sub=AR[/url]”>http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/06/AR2006040601380.html?sub=AR&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>"Every sensible immigration policy has two objectives: (1) to regain control of our borders so that it is we who decide who enters and (2) to find a way to normalize and legalize the situation of the 11 million illegals among us.</p>

<p>Start with the second. No one of good will wants to see these 11 million suffer. But the obvious problem is that legalization creates an enormous incentive for new illegals to come.</p>

<p>We say, of course, that this will be the very last, very final, never-again, we’re-not-kidding-this-time amnesty. The problem is that we say exactly the same thing with every new reform. And everyone knows it’s phony.</p>

<p>What do you think was said in 1986 when we passed the Simpson-Mazzoli immigration reform? It turned into the largest legalization program in American history – nearly 3 million people got permanent residency. And we are now back at it again with 11 million more illegals in our midst.</p>

<p>How can it be otherwise? We already have a river of people coming every day knowing they’re going to be illegal and perhaps even exploited. They come nonetheless. The newest amnesty – the “earned legalization” being dangled in front of them by proposed Senate legislation – can only increase the flow.</p>

<p>Those who think employer sanctions will control immigration are dreaming. Employer sanctions were the heart of Simpson-Mazzoli. They are not only useless; they are pernicious. They turn employers into enforcers of border control. That is the job of government, not landscapers.</p>

<p>The irony of this whole debate, which is bitterly splitting the country along partisan, geographic and ethnic lines, is that there is a silver bullet that would not just solve the problem but also create a national consensus behind it.</p>

<p>My proposition is this: A vast number of Americans who oppose legalization and fear new waves of immigration would change their minds if we could radically reduce new – i.e., future – illegal immigration.</p>

<p>Forget employer sanctions. Build a barrier. It is simply ridiculous to say it cannot be done. If one fence won’t do it, then build a second 100 yards behind it. And then build a road for patrols in between. Put in cameras. Put in sensors. Put out lots of patrols.</p>

<p>Can’t be done? Israel’s border fence has been extraordinarily successful in keeping out potential infiltrators who are far more determined than mere immigrants. Nor have very many North Koreans crossed into South Korea in the past 50 years.</p>

<p>Of course it will be ugly. So are the concrete barriers to keep truck bombs from driving into the White House. But sometimes necessity trumps aesthetics. And don’t tell me that this is our Berlin Wall. When you build a wall to keep people in, that’s a prison. When you build a wall to keep people out, that’s an expression of sovereignty. The fence around your house is a perfectly legitimate expression of your desire to control who comes into your house to eat, sleep and use the facilities. It imprisons no one.</p>

<p>Of course, no barrier will be foolproof. But it doesn’t have to be. It simply has to reduce the river of illegals to a manageable trickle. Once we can do that, everything becomes possible – most especially, humanizing the situation of our 11 million illegals.</p>

<p>If the government can demonstrate that it can control future immigration, there will be infinitely less resistance to dealing generously with the residual population of past immigration. And, as Mickey Kaus and others have suggested, that may require that the two provisions be sequenced. First, radical border control by physical means. Then, shortly thereafter, radical legalization of those already here. To achieve national consensus on legalization, we will need a short lag time between the two provisions, perhaps a year or two, to demonstrate to the skeptics that the current wave of illegals is indeed the last.</p>

<p>This is no time for mushy compromise. A solution requires two acts of national will: the ugly act of putting up a fence and the supremely generous act of absorbing as ultimately full citizens those who broke our laws to come to America.</p>

<p>This is not a compromise meant to appease both sides without achieving anything. It is not some piece of hybrid legislation that arbitrarily divides illegals into those with five-year-old “roots” in America and those without, or some such mischief-making nonsense.</p>

<p>This is full amnesty (earned with back taxes and learning English and the like) with full border control. If we do it right, not only will we solve the problem, we will get it done as one nation."</p>

<p>I completely agree with a huge concrete barrier fence or wall with guards to prevent further millions of illegal immigrants from coming in. I also think people who are already here should get a permit or something so we can identify them and they know we won’t deport them. But they should not ever be rewarded with citizenship because they have shown utter disregard for our laws and disrespect for our country and our people by protesting with the Mexican flag. Why should we reward criminal behavior? Why should they ever get the right to vote? There are plenty of people from foreign countries gaining citizenship the proper and legal way. People who appreciate our great nation. Let’s take care of our LEGAL immigrants first!!!</p>

<p>And maybe they should wear something too so we know who they are – I don’t know, maybe something like a yellow star.</p>

<p>Let’s also get those Irish who keep walking around every march bragging about their homeland. </p>

<p>Seriously, I like getting tomatoes for under $3 a pound so I enjoy the benefits of the field workers that some of you would criminalize. I also think the churches and organizations that help find housing for these workers and their families are good, so I don’t want them criminalized.</p>

<p>If you wanted to criminalize someone, you could always start confiscating the companies that encouraged these workers to come to the country by employing them. They take drug dealers cars, why not grab all the Wal Marts, farms and businesses that use undocumented workers. After a couple of well know companies were sold at public auction…we would fix the problem…of course my tomatoes might cost me $5 a pound if anyone would be willing to pick them at all.</p>

<p>Seriously, I like getting tomatoes for under $3 a pound so I enjoy the benefits of the field workers that some of you would criminalize</p>

<p>so if these workers are legal should their employers be forced to pay minimum wage?
would then the price of your tomatoes go up?</p>

<p>BTW aren’t you in Ca?</p>

<p><a href=“farmernet.com - This website is for sale! - farmernet Resources and Information.”>farmernet.com - This website is for sale! - farmernet Resources and Information.;

<p>Why don’t we help these workers grow their own tomatoes?</p>

<p>Why do folks continue to believe that migrant farmworkers are paid minimum wage or less? The average is well over $1-$2 above the minimum wage (significantly higher in certain crops, like cherries). The bigger difficulty is that they can find work on average for only 29 weeks a year, and have to move (with all the expenses attached) from place to place. AND, if they are injured, can’t collect on the workers comp they paid for, AND, and it is just the same for citizens, they don’t have health insurance (the health costs associated with undocumented workers has nothing to do with the fact that they are undocumented, but that they are uninsured.)</p>

<p>its over 239-182!!!
republicans got owned
except for the latinos, all the other immigrants have to come to the US legally, while all they do is walk the border and thats no fair in my opinion…because lots of africans need to get away from their countyr but can they no…but mexicans can…im a democrat but i disagree with this decision</p>

<p>

</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sayitloud/phillips411[/url]”>http://www.blackamericaweb.com/site.aspx/sayitloud/phillips411&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>

That’s about sums it up.</p>

<p>This was a super-long essay. I am only quoting the most important section of the essay. People really need to think before they want to help those who are not supposed to be here in the first place. It’s not like African Americans can jump ship and go “home”. Our home IS America.</p>

<p>

</p></li>
</ul>

<p>website: <a href=“http://www.harvestinstitute.org%5B/url%5D”>www.harvestinstitute.org</a></p>

<p>

Sorry, I couldn’t help myself:)</p>

<p>bandit_TX, this is classic !!</p>

<p>Folks, please distribute this in your emails, copy friends, associates.</p>

<p>Bandit, great post!! It illustrates just why so many people are extremely concerned about the illegal immigration issue. Your post also demonstrates why this issue is not about race, but patriotism and economics and why narrow-minded posts like the following are completely off base! </p>

<p>“Just another lie spread by the xenophobes” by Mini post # 28</p>

<p>“And maybe they should wear something too so we know who they are – I don’t know, maybe something like a yellow star.” by Alia post # 47</p>

<p>Most racist behavior is not recognized as such by the person who behaves this way. They think that racial jokes are just jokes and don’t hurt anyone. They justify their beliefs…I remember people saying, “the ■■■■■■■ want their own water fountains” and I am sure these people went to church never thinking they were racists…just practical. Today they might feel content with their misbelief that people risk their lives to cross the border for food stamps and medicare… but we know they are primarily coming up here to work, to earn money and to send it home to their families, if their families have not joined them. This is an economic problem because money flows from our communities away, the same problem exists when the wealthy take vacations in Europe or when consumers by cars and electronics made over seas.</p>

<p>One problem is that the profits from employing undocumented workers frequently flows to a different community than the ones responsible for the social costs of the workers and their families. A simplistic example would be the family that will use an undocumented alien baby sitter or gardener, but would never agree to having low income housing nearby; or a company owner who will not live near his or her employees.</p>

<p>EK many of the farm workers I have known were paid above minimum wage…but they worked harder for it than many of us would be willing to work, so they probably are underpaid especially when you consider the poor benefits. </p>

<p>Bandit, of course if you crossed into Mexico, you would be leaving a state that was once a territory of Spain. A place were Spainish was spoken long before you arrived.</p>

<p>Look, folks, I acknowledge your frustration, but truly I don’t believe this has a darn thing to do with patriotism, and I think you’re very foolish if you think this issue will be resolved simply by saying, “Round 'em all up and ship 'em back where they came from.” The situation needs a more thoughtful solution, and, honestly, I think the US is at a crossroads (again) where ideals, long held up as national treasures and emblems of our national character, are no longer valued and seem, in fact, completely at odds with the values of many posters here. The great thing about these rallies and the current debate in Congress is that they are exposing the need to address the situation now. </p>

<p>Tensighs, I have to say that I think it’s also an opportunity for the African American community to shout louder and make itself more visible in this debate as well. Katrina exposed a kind of poverty that many in this country believed did not exist. That was a wake-up call. This – the immigration rallies – is another one. These two events are not isolated. Both provide opportunites for the US to create a different kind of social web, one more connected to the realities of the situation. Unfortunately, these events also provide opportunites for people who are scared of <em>their</em> America not being the one they recognize to become hateful, while believing they are just using common sense. Hence, my “yellow star” comment.</p>

<p>

I take offense to you calling me hateful. This is an emotional issue and the cc forum is a great place to exchange ideas. But name calling is inappropriate.</p>