<p>I have my doubts that the illegals I see on street corners early in the morning waiting to pile in the back of pick-up trucks in route to a job have filled out a W-2 form.</p>
<p>^^ exactly same here…how much are they actually contributing to your social security progra,…is it even enough?</p>
<p>I already posted the data. (Post 36).</p>
<p>Read and learn. Or, better, do the research yourself. ;)</p>
<p>^^ yea i head that in the news, but is that really that accurate?</p>
<p>Did you bother to read the source of the data?</p>
<p>yes i did…i actually read that article before you even posted that…dont you dare think im a troller without any knowledge</p>
<p>Well, then you’d know that the source was NOT a news article (from this Reagan/Bush appointee), but the Social Security Administration.</p>
<p>I actually saw the debate last week, and woman kept using this as her main evidence…the part where they say that the social security could not be matched–seems weird…how are the immigrants getting these ss numbers that are actually passed of as valid ss numbers</p>
<p>You simply make it up and go to work. (I worked for 10 years as a state regulator of migrant farmworker housing, so I know the ropes. And the Social Security Administration was instructed “not to mind” - do you want them to refund $120 billion to those who paid in over the past 10 years?)</p>
<p>As a hispanic immigrant and as a history buff I am appalled by what I read and see on this immigration debate. This is a classic new immigrants vs. old immigrants deal and somehow we keep repeating the same lame fight with the same lame arguments. Building a wall between Mexico and the US is a ridiculous notion with no social or economical reasoning. Look how well it worked for Israel…(notice sarcasm…). The fact remains that our government chose globalization and under globalization and under basic economic principles immigration from Latin America and other developing countries is not only needed but inevitable. As our population becomes increasingly educated it leaves a gap for unskilled jobs that immigrants fill. We use illegal labor everday!!! you know those oranges you had last week, guess who was out there frying in the sun picking them so you can enjoy it!! an illegal immigrant!!! statistics prove that immigrants both legal and illegal contribute more to the economy than they take. So what exactly is the problem then? could it be a little xenophobia??? Aren’t we just being neo-nativists and obvioulsly not learning from this country’s past.</p>
<p>
Wrong on so many points. By the poster’s logic, we should return California,New Mexico,Arizona and parts of Texas to Mexico and/or Spain. Rather, it is about open tent. No nation canbe an open tent forever. I will have the same problem if millions of white Canadian suddenly decided they want to make a better living south of the border too. A carefully controlled open door of freedom - yes. The US population is closing toward 300M. If we allow illegals to infiltrate our country in the numbers it has become and grant legal status after every few years, US population will swell to 350M with particular one-sided racial imbalance in southwestern states in a few generations. What kind of social order can we maintain? Think welfare state,unemployment,crime and slums. Large parts of Los Angeles are already like that.</p>
<p>It is astounding that a segment of our population tend to practice self-gouging and deprecation whenever possible. They are easily “embarrassed” by almost anything our government does. And I say the United States have done more things right than things wrong. </p>
<p>Where does this come from? </p>
<p>Having spent a fair amount of time abroad when I was young , I reflect now that citizens in other countries in large part revere their government, some even live in fear of it. That’s a bad extreme. Americans are on the other extreme, we tend to dispise their government. Why ? BECAUSE WE CAN - owed to freedom of speech. But freedom of speech has a double edge: if you say bad things about your government often enough and long enough, it must be true, to your mind. The same tongue that heals and binds can also bickers and destroys.</p>
<p>You might say an open and democratic society such as ours must allow and promote freedom of expression. That is true, but must we DESTROY OURSELVES EVERYTIME IN DOING SO ?</p>
<p>“What kind of social order can we maintain? Think welfare state,unemployment,crime and slums. Large parts of Los Angeles are already like that.”
Why do you assume that it will be a slum/welfare state? I doubt ypu would believe this if the immigrants were Canadians despite your statement. The most likely ocurrence is that the economics will balance out in the long run and assimilation will take place, those illegals you saw in the rallies…their descendants will most likely be college graduates and business-owners. In a couple of decades it will probably be the Latin American immigrants against the newest influx of immigrants.</p>
<p>“What kind of social order can we maintain? Think welfare state,unemployment,crime and slums.”</p>
<p>Yup. It’s race all right. Sounds just like the racialist ideologies of the 1890s.</p>
<p>Like free trade? (meaning the right of U.S. corporations to invade the borders of other nations and extract their labor and raw materials?) Free markets? (doesn’t exist anywhere in the world, but that’s beside the point.) Well, relatively porous borders goes with the package. </p>
<p>Don’t like it? You can always move to “communist China” - just like Wal-Mart. Meanwhile, there are small numbers of folks still moving across the border (immigration being at a very low ebb) who are willing to get their hands dirty, work for a living, support their families, pay taxes and Social Security (even though they can’t collect), and care for me in my old age. And I say more power to 'em (and we can do without Bush’s unscrupulous labor contractor friends - the free market is working just fine - rebuilding New Orleans, picking our fruits and vegetables, plucking our chickens, and starting small enterprises.</p>
<p>
This is what the probelm
stranger got into your house; the stranger refuses to leave; now he says its his house, too ! </p>
<p>Is it fair that Mexicans can come to the US by just walking the border, while other people in other parts of the world cannot?
What about Africans who are dealing with genocide and civil wars in their country, do they have the privilige to just walk the border. NO. They too deserve to come to a country where they can be at peace but they cant. So for them to get out of that miserable life, they must come to US legally…Therefore the Mexicans should also come to the US legally like the rest of the legal immigrants.
I mean lots of Africans would still love to the live the life that many mexicans do even though to us it may seem harsh…</p>
<p>I second to what BestM and YW said. Thanks for your very clear illustration about our society. </p>
<p>I must say it troubles me that everytime when people run out of argument they reach for the race card. </p>
<p>And I have problem too if millions of Canadians suddenly shows up inside our borders, regardless of what race they are.</p>
<p>BestMiller, folks like mini will not answer your question why it’s OK for those who live on the border to skip the legal steps in order to maintain citizenship while those who live oceans away, whether they are well-off or live in a war-torn country, must apply legally. It’s truly unfair. Folks don’t understand that the immigrants that came in the early 20th century did so legally. Yes, the US had immigration exclusion laws. Americans are not saying we should exclude a certain group of people. We need a REGULATED form of immigration so that the US government can track these people down.</p>
<p>“BestMiller, folks like mini will not answer your question why it’s OK for those who live on the border to skip the legal steps in order to maintain citizenship while those who live oceans away, whether they are well-off or live in a war-torn country, must apply legally.”</p>
<p>I’ll answer. I support ALL immigration of Haitian immigrants. Every single one of them that wants in. And I don’t care how they get here, legally or illegally. As long as the U.S. is in the habit of overthrowing their democratically elected leaders, and controlling what little there is of their economy, let 'em come. In boat loads. Raft loads. Couple of million would be fine with me. And I’ll put my money where my mouth is. (Actually, already have.)</p>
<p>But the reason we have folks coming from Mexico is simple. Capitalism demands it. There AREN’T U.S. workers taking the jobs these folks fill. Not in Georgia. Not in New Orleans. Not in Wenatchee, Washington, not in Fresno, California. So it is government policy - I didn’t make the policy, but it is government policy - to keep the engines of capitalism running, without the expense of “importing workers”, no, these folks pay for their own transportation. It is already against the law to hire these folks - heard of any prosecutions lately?</p>
<p>And better than that, when the folks get here, they operate in a free market. No labor contractors keeping them in concentration camps, as in Dubai. No, they go where the labor is needed, work HARD, send money home, get ahead, send their kids to college, who in turn elect folks to their state legislature, and to Congress.</p>
<p>Don’t like it? Take it up with the capitalists - they brought you free trade, and free markets, and the free movement of labor just comes along with it. The immigrants aren’t taking away your jobs and sending them to China, the immigrants aren’t taking away your health insurance, the immigrants aren’t stealing your pensions, the immigrants aren’t ending white collar employment, and the immigrants aren’t spending two trillion on a war by the waters of Babylon. If you’ve got a problem, you know whom to take it up with.</p>
<p>Okay, </p>
<ol>
<li><em>Illegal</em> immigration is a problem for a whole host of reasons for both the society at large and for the immigrants themselves.</li>
<li>The US economy and standard of living depends on these immigrants for the services they provide.</li>
</ol>
<p>If you agree to those two points, what’s the solution? What questions do we need to ask first? I can think of a few:</p>
<p>How much immigration does this country honestly need? That is, if all the illegal immigrants magically vanished from our society, what would be the real effect? </p>
<p>If that effect would be as dramatic as some of us believe, how do we assimilate these needed workers and provide a legal path for them to work and live here?</p>
<p>Do we want a guest worker program in the US? What would be the long-term ramifications of that? For the society at-large and for guest workers and their families?</p>
<p>Let’s stop jerking our knees one way or another and ask more questions, puzzle out more solutions. Every day, this country remakes itself. Ain’t no such thing as a closed system, folks, not in this world.</p>
<p>P.S. If there is anyone out there that feels moved by the plight of the poor Africans and their inability to immigrate here, PM me and I’ll send you the address of a place when you can send a nice fat check to help out. It will be really appreciated. (There are groups in the field working even as we speak.)</p>
<p>*How much immigration does this country honestly need? That is, if all the illegal immigrants magically vanished from our society, what would be the real effect? *</p>
<p>The net effect will be very low. There are simply more Americans than the number of illegal immigrants residing here who will be more than willing to take their jobs, especially at a livable wage. I think people are forgetting that before we had illegal immigrants, we had American workers doing “jobs that Americans didn’t want” anyways. African Americans were involved in the institution of slavery and the sharecropping system, both primarily agricultural areas. The construction trades were alreadys predominately white (and still is in many parts of the country). The hotel/restaurant service industry was always predominately black until Latinos pushed them out. We talk about settlement and assimiliation, but these past few decades (particularly since the 1970s) have not seen an increase in the standard of living for the majority of Americans. Big Business want people to support illegal immigration so that they can continue to meet the bottom line: making profits. It doesn’t help Mexicans or other ethnic groups who still reside in their native lands if the cream of the crop and communities continue to relocate elsewhere and not attack the real problem: their own government. So to say that this country will go into a severe depression if we didn’t have illegal immigrants working here is a big ol’ lie. In fact, because these workers are exploited, they help big business (not the middle-class Americans) by continuing to fuel suburbanization and overconsumption. Plain and simple.</p>