Importance of Wardrobe?

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@Pizzagirl

Do you have a third arm or something? Because every time this topic comes up, you always talk about how difficult it is for young men to find suits that fit. I gotta say, I don’t see it at all. Fascinating how I can go look at pictures from any fraternity formal event and the guys are all perfectly able to find decent well-fitting suits.

</p>

<p>I have a 9-10" drop (= chest - waist) due to not being obese. Standard US clothing size is nominally for a 6" drop, although it often seems that the clothing is more accommodating of obesity than that. For T-shirts and polo/golf/tennis shirts, it works ok, but they are often tighter in the chest than in the abdomen. For suits and dress shirts, fit is more important to look good (the whole reason one wears suits and dress shirts); alteration by more than 2" is generally not recommended. There exist “athletic fit” suits and dress shirts nominally for 8" drop, but those are nearly impossible to find in stores to try on.</p>

<p>Even without the 6" vs. 8" vs. whatever drop issue, there is also just plain size. Dress clothing stores may stock heavily at 36" to 39" waist for suit trousers, with less selection in the 30" to 32" range (and some of that is cut like hipster skinny jeans).</p>

<p>Since college age men are much less likely to be obese, they are more likely to encounter the same fit issues. (And that is often visible when the come in to interview for internships or first jobs after graduation.)</p>

<p>Here is an article about men’s clothing sizes:
[Slim</a> pickings in a weighty world - The Boston Globe](<a href=“http://www.boston.com/yourlife/fashion/articles/2004/04/10/slim_pickings_in_a_weighty_world/?page=full]Slim”>http://www.boston.com/yourlife/fashion/articles/2004/04/10/slim_pickings_in_a_weighty_world/?page=full)</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

DH frequently says there is an age group in the middle (30 ish to 40ish) that does NOT know how to dress. He has had to take these folks aside and remind them that the office is business casual, not shabby chic. At the party, this was notable. The new 20 something employees and spouses were dressed to the nines (it was a dress up event…dinner and dancing at a large hotel ballroom). The over 40 or so crowd was dressed to the nines (hey…it’s a good time for me to wear the gorgeous silk slacks and jacket I have…and my nicer jewelry). The group in the middle…some t shirts, less than nice khaki slacks, sneakers, even a hoodie or two. I wondered if they looked around and saw everyone else…or not. My guess is they looked around and thought everyone else was stuffy.

</p>

<p>A part of this is generational. The age group you describe here…which includes yours truly are younger Gen-Xers who came of age during HS/college around the time grunge/alternative rock music became popularized and one of the associated values was a de-emphasis/rejecting of “stuffy” or conformist values commonly associated with suits/formal wear. </p>

<p>To some extent, it was also a backlash against the 1980’s when formal suits and preppie clothing were popular among the hyped up critical mass of older Gen Xers and up. Just look at the popularization of formal corporate wear & culture from movies of that era/depicting that era like Wall Street starring the character Gordon Gekko. </p>

<p>However, that wasn’t necessarily the values for everyone from that group, but a critical mass which were visible and publicized in the mass media of the time. </p>

<p>As with some latter boomers like the commenter Hat who ignored or like Dan Quayle or George W. Bush, rejected the hippie counter cultural movement altogether, there were also latter Gen Xers who ignored or totally rejected the prevailing rejecting of “dressy” and “fashionable” clothing. </p>

<p>A large number of those rejecting the prevailing sartorial choices of my generation attended my HS. Granted, they tended to be associated with the same/similar side of the political spectrum as the two famous politicians I mentioned above or, in some cases, associated with 80’s popular sub-cultures after they’ve been left behind by the grunge/alternative rock subcultures. </p>

<p>This was probably a factor in why business casual became much more commonplace when I started my first post-college job at the end of the '90s/early '00s. </p>

<p>Not too long before, older supervisors in my first few jobs noted I’d have been mandated to wear a suit, even if my job didn’t require meeting clients/senior executives or in extreme cases like the 80’s era IBM an older supervisor worked for, are working in hot/dirty conditions where suits are impractical or even dangerous. </p>

<p>Then again, the supervisors themselves were relieved at the greater informality in “Business Casual” in the '90s and beyond compared with the prevailing workplace dress codes mandating suits which existed earlier in their careers.</p>

[NJSue]

<p>My useless theory is that the popularity of Mad Men and other “period” TV shows demonstrated to a whole aesthetically deprived generation just how good a man looks in a well-tailored suit. Schlubby clothing does no one any favors looks-wise, but if that’s all you see on a daily basis, of course that’s what you’ll wear. I also noticed that people in their 20s seem to dress better, oddly, than people in their 30s. Girls in skirts and heels, boys in close-cut suits. It’s a retro chic thing.</p>

[thumper1]

<p>Both my DH and DS wear very slim European cut slim sizes. One is 5’7" and the other is almost 6 feet tall. Neither is obese or even close to it. The shorter one has a 29 inch waist and the taller one a rousing 31.</p>

<p>Neither of them has ANY trouble finding off the rack clothing that fits them and suits their styles. And we are not talking high end prices here either (although both OWN very high end suits that yours truly found at a resale shop…that fit them like they were tailored for them).</p>

[Southmom]

<p>My son is also pretty much a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy, but his paternal grandmother has always been somewhat on the formal side, and always expected her eight grandkids would dress for holiday dinners, etc… So, he learned to do that and it didn’t kill him. That doesn’t mean he’s still not a jeans and t-shirt guy at heart, but he is also comfortable when the situation requires more (blue blazer and khakis for special outings and dinners with the in-laws). That’s just part of growing up in my opinion, learning to adapt and dress for different situations. </p>

<p>He’s just spent this past fall semester interviewing for summer 2014 engineering internships and needed to upgrade his wardrobe even further. We spent about $300 for his first suit; although he felt awkward at first during the shopping/trying on process at Macy’s, he really liked it after it was altered and it’s hanging in his closet ready to go when he needs it. Nothing fancy - basic charcoal grey suit, blue shirt, and striped tie, but it makes him feel confident and professional and it makes me smile. :). </p>

<p>Funny story…he recently rode in a university van along with a group of six other guys to an engineering externship at a large electric/gas power holding company. An email was sent to the students ahead of time informing them that the dress was “business casual.” Apparently, they all turned up in varying degrees of business dress depending on where they came from (ties/no ties, jackets/no jackets, etc…). Luckily, the career center chaperone (who was excellent!) had told them to bring more than they might need and to “shed” and leave extraneous items on the van. So, most ties came off, but jackets remained. It was a good learning experience.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Most young adults know how to dress for different occasions. Whether they choose to is a different story. Its not like they live under a rock.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

My son is also pretty much a jeans and t-shirt kind of guy, but his paternal grandmother has always been somewhat on the formal side, and always expected her eight grandkids would dress for holiday dinners, etc… So, he learned to do that and it didn’t kill him. That doesn’t mean he’s still not a jeans and t-shirt guy at heart, but he is also comfortable when the situation requires more (blue blazer and khakis for special outings and dinners with the in-laws). That’s just part of growing up in my opinion, learning to adapt and dress for different situations.

</p>

<p>Yes. Exactly.<br>
My S has become close lately with a young lady who is a conservative Catholic. She expressed interest in attending services with him, which they did, and he is now planning on attending her services with her. Isn’t it just as well that he was raised in such a way that he automatically knows that this deserves a bit more respect and polish than jeans and a t-shirt and sneakers, AND that he has something in his closet so he doesn’t have to rush out at the last minute like an idiot to find something appropriate because his parents left him twisting in the wind by not cluing him in and ensuring he had something to wear? Why this is “excessive formality” is beyond me. Yes, we know, cobrat, all your conformist tech friends would have shown up looking like schlubs because they weren’t raised any better.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

The age group you describe here…which includes yours truly are younger Gen-Xers who came of age during HS/college around the time grunge/alternative rock music became popularized and one of the associated values was a de-emphasis/rejecting of “stuffy” or conformist values commonly associated with suits/formal wear.

</p>

<p>Too bad that they are so judgmental about what people wear. </p>

<p>

To some extent, it was also a backlash against the 1980’s when formal suits and preppie clothing were popular among the hyped up critical mass of older Gen Xers and up. Just look at the popularization of formal corporate wear & culture from movies of that era/depicting that era like Wall Street starring the character Gordon Gekko.

</p>

<p>All your friends sound like conformists to me. “Oh look - we’ve all got to act as dressing up is capitulating to The Man!” Don’t any of them have their own thoughts, or is it more important that they all travel the same path so as not to be looked down on contemptuously?</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

All your friends sound like conformists to me. “Oh look - we’ve all got to act as dressing up is capitulating to The Man!” Don’t any of them have their own thoughts, or is it more important that they all travel the same path so as not to be looked down on contemptuously?

</p>

<p>With many undergrad classmates at my college when I attended, yes. </p>

<p>With most everyone else, it was more like my older supervisors’ reactions after experiencing much more formal stricter dress codes earlier in their careers, relief there’s much more flexibility in going to “business casual” and they no longer have be concerned about being as “dressy” or formal as before. </p>

<p>Granted, there were a few old-school colleagues who were from the same generations as their’s and mine who felt this “was wrong” and carped about it. Most everyone else just dismissed them as cranks inclined towards being control-freaky busybodies in matters that are none of their business*.</p>

<p>Not to mention it is funny when those who are inclined to be judgmental about clothing choices of others complain when they are judged, in return, for their own choices and being judgmental in areas where it’s really a personal choice or a matter between a given establishment** and the individuals themselves. </p>

<p>Hey…what’s good for the goose is good for the gander and all that…</p>

<ul>
<li>Not employers who were in a position to influence or change institutional dress codes.<br></li>
</ul>

<p>** Workplace, house of worship, or someone’s home. If the ones with standing to say it’s fine for someone to come dressed informally or even just casual t-shirt and jeans in those areas, then the matter’s settled. I don’t know, but I find it odd that some would feel entitled to make commentary to “correct” or otherwise tell others they’re not dressed appropriately or “nicely” in situations where they’re not in a position in which it is their call to do so.</p>

<p>

Yes, we know, cobrat, all your conformist tech friends would have shown up looking like schlubs because they weren’t raised any better.

</p>

<p>Depends on the individual house of worship and the preferences of the congregation or presiding priest(s). </p>

<p>I’ve visited some pretty conservative Evangelical and Baptist churches founded in the 17th century with colleagues and friends where dressing in manner you’d consider “schlubs” was normal and openly accepted per rules stated in their bulletin/handouts. </p>

<p>Same with some synagogues, Buddhist temples, Catholic Churches, and other religious houses of worship. </p>

<p>I’ve also attended two Catholic schools from grade 1-6 so I am aware of the different formality requirements. Especially considering both schools required uniforms for all students. Yecch. :D</p>

<p>It’s really a YMMV deal and as such, it’s best to figure out what’s the appropriate dress codes and social norms of each house of worship before going in. In some places, “overdressing” is considered just as bad as “underdressing” in terms of formality level.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

I don’t know, but I find it odd that some would feel entitled to make commentary to “correct” or otherwise tell others they’re not dressed appropriately or “nicely” in situations where they’re not in a position in which it is their call to do so.

</p>

<p>A) Who did that? Did I say that I walked around correcting people? Nope.</p>

<p>B) But yet you don’t find it odd that your tech friends feel entitled to make commentary to make fun of their peers who were dressing in nicer clothing, by saying contemptuous things, by suggesting that they were sucking up to The Man, or that they really couldn’t be as smart as they thought or have the true tech-nerd credentials they wanted.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Workplace, house of worship, or someone’s home. If the ones with standing to say it’s fine for someone to come dressed informally or even just casual t-shirt and jeans in those areas, then the matter’s settled.

</p>

<p>I have absolutely no idea what the dress code is for the Catholic services at Northwestern are (and don’t feel compelled to google for me, I’m not the one going). It’s very possible that most of the kids wear jeans and t-shirts and that’s totally fine and appropriate. Still and all, I think it’s nice that my son knows better, and there’s certainly no harm in turning it up a notch and showing respect for his friend’s house of worship. I think it’s what a gentleman does in those circumstances. Luckily it hasn’t been an Insurmountable Problem for him to get a pair of khakis and a button down or sweater to have on hand in his closet, unlike how it seems to be an Insurmountable Problem for many of your friends, who couldn’t <em>possibly</em> figure out how to get such novel items.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

All your friends sound like conformists to me. “Oh look - we’ve all got to act as dressing up is capitulating to The Man!” Don’t any of them have their own thoughts, or is it more important that they all travel the same path so as not to be looked down on contemptuously?<br>
With many undergrad classmates at my college when I attended, yes.

</p>

<p>So if your Oberlin classmates were uniformly conformist, tell me again why it would be important for you to pay attention to what they thought, or to worry about being “regarded” as something? Because your posts betray a lot of anxiety and worry that someone might “regard” you as bourgeouis, or stuffy, or sucking up to the Man, or anything that isn’t quite right in the eyes of your classmates.</p>

[cobrat]

<p>

But yet you don’t find it odd that your tech friends feel entitled to make commentary to make fun of their peers who were dressing in nicer clothing, by saying contemptuous things, by suggesting that they were sucking up to The Man, or that they really couldn’t be as smart as they thought or have the true tech-nerd credentials they wanted.

</p>

<p>I do, but have slightly more sympathy for them as their perspective is far from the mainstream and tends to be heavily marginalized by the larger mainstream as demonstrated by your comments like:</p>

<p>

Well, then, too bad for them. Too bad for them that they restrict themselves to life experiences that only call for them to stay in casual clothes. Too bad for them that they never go to a theater, a special dinner at a nice restaurant, a wedding, or any other kind of occasion where they spruce themselves up a little bit. Too bad that they cripple their kids

</p>

<p>

If you haven’t exposed your kid to occasions beyond slob and taught them what to do, you’ve failed them just as surely as if you haven’t taught them to shake hands or say please and thank you.

</p>

<p>

Do you have a third arm or something?

</p>

<p>Not only are they filled with insults against those with whom you disagree, they assume a level of universality of norms and expectations I and many others haven’t experienced or observed even in some highly formalistic venues like going to high-end NYC restaurants or catching a performance at the Metropolitan Opera. </p>

<p>In both types of venues, I’ve gone in suit and tie and had occasion to dress much less formally including an occasion where I had the privilege of meeting Jackie Mason who was more informally dressed than I was on account of the 95+ degree hot humid weather…shorts and white t-shirt. </p>

<p>Then again, my party, Mason, and a couple of other patrons were the only ones who didn’t look like they came out of a sauna after being dunked in the Hudson/East Rivers like most of the suited and tuxedoed/fancy dressed patrons while enjoying our few hundred dollar/person lunches. :)</p>

<p>Granted, the restaurant part was very much due to the post-2008 economy and I wouldn’t be surprised that as the economy improves, they will reinstitute the strict enforcement of formal dress norms they had before.</p>

[jym626]

<p><<< banging head on monitor>>>></p>

<p>Has anyone noticed the OP is long gone? And that the thread has yet again been personalized and derailed by irrelevant stuff from decades ago. Hopefully the OP was selective in who he took dressing advice from on this thread.</p>

[paying3tuitions]

<p>At the very least, OP can surmise that wardrobe is important.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

I do, but have slightly more sympathy for them as their perspective is far from the mainstream and tends to be heavily marginalized by the larger mainstream as demonstrated by your comments like

</p>

<p>You always do tend to sympathize with the non-mainstream. It seems really important for you to deliberately not be mainstream - regardless of whether the mainstream view of something is a good view or not a good view. Why is mainstream such an insult or bad thing?</p>

[HImom]

<p>In HI, you can find slim men’s swim shorts in surf shops (because those guys tend to be fit). S has also had luck by buying a lot of his dress clothing in Thailand, where there are a lot of men that are 5’7" or less and 110-125 pounds. Seriously, it is not all that easy to find men’s dress shirts and formal dress slacks in 27" or 28" and 28" length in the US, especially outside of the boy’s department (which doesn’t fit right anyway).</p>

<p>D also has a very tough time finding clothing that fits right. She is a size 0 or 00. For proms and banquets, we could generally find one dress in the entire mall that would fit without alteration (other than hemming). Now that she’s looking for blazers, we have found only one so far that has fit her properly without alteration. It’s pretty frustrating, but at least I am good at hemming, as I’ve had to hem a lot of things for her 5’2" 100 pound frame.</p>

<p>I am very fortunate that I fit a LOT of clothing easily. H is also fairly easy to fit. We can both find jackets and blazers readily that fit us from the racks at most stores. Fitting slimmer young adults is a whole different story. S has found a few brands and sizes he can fit if and when he runs out of the wardrobe he purchased 3 years ago in Thailand, or he may have to re-visit? D may also have to consider travel to a place with more petite folks to find better fitting garments–we shall see. :)</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

assume a level of universality of norms and expectations I and many others haven’t experienced or observed even in some highly formalistic venues like going to high-end NYC restaurants or catching a performance at the Metropolitan Opera.

</p>

<p>No. <em>You</em> haven’t experienced. Stop trying to speak for many others as if you have special insight in what other people think. You don’t know more people than any of the rest of us do.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>My daughter is also petite, and has a hard time finding shoes that fit her size 5, narrow-heel foot. However, we don’t treat it as an Insurmountable Problem where we just throw up our hands and gnash our teeth and say can’t-do-it. It just means we have to try a little harder. Big whoops.</p>

[cbreeze]

<p>HI mom, Nordstrom’s and Banana Republic have selections for your D’s sizing. If she can’t find anything in store, go online. She can return anything that doesn’t fit.</p>