Is Anti-intellectualism To Blame For America's Problems?

@AlexanderIII It is great that he does that. My point was that he did not “dare to point out the obvious connections between things like teen pregnancy and poverty” like you just said. He never said a word about poverty. I would have completely agreed with him if he had. He specifically talked about

He then specifically mentions only blacks.

As for how much good I do for the black community- well, I frequently work with large groups of inner-city black children. I have no idea if my time and effort does any good. I hope so.

The solution is similar to what I’ve stated earlier in this thread:

“a free, 2-year secondary education would be invaluable”

People like awc, if he/she’s telling the truth, are apart of the solution. Education is invaluable to low-income children and, like he/she said, 90% go on to college in his/her case. Never mind what anyone says, though, let’s throw out the word “racist” at them for daring to state facts.

Hi, your resident CC racist here:

This is just straight-forward liberal projection that I just ignore because it is so predictable. When you have nothing else, the only thing left is to call names to the people who point out reality. One word comes to mind - juvenile.

The changing of my post to say just “blacks” is telling as to the projection, as my comment about certain groups applies to poor blacks, poor white communities in Appalachia, and the now growing really poor latino communities in South Texas, which are run by gangs similar to Chicago.

I mentioned the immigrant interns (Asian, African, Balkan, and Persian) and blacks in the second part of my post because that is what I have experience with and the difference is so stark as to be depressing. No experience with white Appalachia or latino South Texas.

The main thing intellectual people do not want to confront is the native-born black population, as a whole, has a highly disproportionate percentage of their population in dire conditions, and too many social programs are bandaids for the to cover up the problems and never address the root. Why do people think that after over 60 years of social programs, not one ghetto has ever been eliminated, unless to be replaced by another ghetto. OK, there might be one, but no difference at all for the money spent. Maybe it is because the intellectually-designed social programs are too smart for their own good?

The question to ask that clearly is not of concern to some here is what is that catholic school doing differently that the girls do not need to be given IUDs on taxpayers’s money, while the intellectuals think that these same girls’ neighbors do need to be given free IUDs. Same neighborhood, same parental histories, yet totally different behavioral outcomes. The teenage pregnancy rate is a symptom of much larger behavioral issues; behavioral issues I am proud to say the young black females in the catholic school are taught specifically not to do.

And no one is saying the black people’s position is their fault, but at some point, not changing your behavior to get out of something does become your fault Again, the girls at the catholic school learn self-responsbilty at age 12 - 15, and they do not get pregnant. Why is that so hard? It is not, but it is darn sure impossible to learn self-responsibility when you are always told that all your problems are someone else’s fault. The result is waiting around for someone else to fix your problems Yes, I know the intellectuals are meeting in Aspen again to design solutions to these problems.

That is one thing poor immigrants in my area do not have - they do not have people continually saying “It is not your fault” and essentially taking away the resolve of people to institute self-responsibility to improve. The immigrant adults openly chastise bad behavior and push the younger immigrant teenagers to step up, be responsible, not get pregnant, and stay in school, even if it is a bad school. And guess what, the immigrant teenagers understand these expectations and boy do they step big time. And, the result is only something like 6% are still in the bad neighborhood after 10 years. Now, that is the type of behavior and success that many of the native-born poor need to learn to emulate.

Did I miss something? I can’t find in your post where you included any of those other groups. You did not mention poor white communities in Appalachia etc.

I know nothing about the program that you are talking about so let me ask a couple of questions. Do you think there is a chance that part of the differences are that the two populations are different and that there is some self-selection going on? I would guess that the kinds of girls most likely to attend a school like that and go against the grain are the kind of girls who have more backbone and values. In other words: it might not be the teachings of the school as much as it is the strength of character of the girls who sign up to be part of that program.

Also, is there any sort of incentive involved? I’m not saying it is a bribe because it clearly isn’t, but if I understand you correctly there is a huge incentive to stay in school and not get pregnant. Who wouldn’t want free college if they fulfilled those caveats.

There is something to be said for those arguments. I don’t know enough about whether your statistics or examples are correct re immigrants to comment on whether they are true or not. Like I said, I know that immigrant teen girls on average have a higher teen pregnancy rate than do black teens. I will try to see if I can locate some other statistics about other socio-economic outcomes for immigrants.

Forget about me, as you are right, I could be all hot air. However, people would be shocked to find out what others they call names in public do behind the scenes.

There is a set of brothers who get called every vile name in the book on CC and get automatic reflexive hatred, yet they are responsible for setting up invaluable internships and some of the best training programs at HBCUs. They do this quietly, even when vilified as just the reverse. When you know this kind of stuff, it really sheds light on how misguided so many posters on CC are. They live on what I call “cubicle” information, i.e., what is passed around at the office, not on what is actually true. It is very similar to unions’ group-think, something I am very familiar with, but thank God no longer deal with anymore.

@awcntdb:
The wording of your post, when you talk about ‘certain native born communities’ and such,is generally a code word for ‘those people’, and usually it is referring to blacks (and to a certain extend, hispanics), because in the popular media and in discussions, we talk about things like the 70% of black kids born to single mothers. Whether you were thinking of black kids or not, I don’t know, and I won’t accuse you of thinking ‘poor, unwed mother’ =black, though I do understand why others feel that.

The reality is the problem with poor, unwed mothers is not based entirely in race, it is based in economics, when people’s economic expectations fall you see the same ills coming to that area, that group of people. There was a recent article profiling the explosion of unwed mothers in areas that would shock many who cry about unwed mothers, it is in the bible belt, among women who are not black or hispanic, but white, in towns full of fundamentalist churches and are considered the ‘salt of the earth’ or whatnot, the out of wedlock birth rate has soared to close to 40%. Why?It has happened as economic expectations in those areas has declined, like with inner city blacks and rural blacks, it reflects the reality of their economic situation. And we are talking young women and the men who created those babies who are not from multi generation single mothers, like the stereotype of the inner city blacks, these are heartland folks facing economic decline.

As far as immigrants go, be careful of stereotypes, they are dangerous. Take a lot at the stats on certain groups, like the Hmong people, and what has happened with them, and you see the stereotype of inner city ills, they have become heavily involved in gangs and so forth. Among certain groups of Chinese immigrants, recent immigrants in a lot of cases, there has been problems there as well, and I suspect if you looked at the numbers, and looked at the economic levels of the family, and charted it, you would find at the lowel levels a lot of problems that are hidden by the ‘model minority’ syndrome. While many immigrants come from China and Korea who are poor, a lot of them come here who are middle class, educated and so forth, and you cannot compare people from that level with those coming in with nothing. Yes, I would bet that if you compared let’s say poor Chinese or Korean immigrants that came here, and looked at things like teen pregnancies and crime and so forth, you would see less problems, but that doesn’t mean they don’t exist.

And the answer to your question is very simple, to quote the old Fram oil commercial, either you pay now or you pay later. I am not going to argue that government programs often do the right thing, but the idea that the answer is to get rid of government programs and make people ‘take responsibility’ leaves something very, very big out, as bad as it is now, what would happen if we did that? Take a look sometime at Newark or Detroit, cities that were devastated by riots in the 1960’s, do you think that maybe, just maybe, if we decided to basically cut all these programs off and said "take care of yourself’ that suddenly everyone would become joe and jane responsible? Do you think that all they need is to ‘pull themselves up by their bootstraps’? One of the reasons we have all these programs, some of which stink, some of which work, some are in between is because people got scared, because those riots weren’t caused by communists or agitators or socialists, they were caused by people who were angry and fed up at being left to rot, ignored, whatever you want to call it. I also will add that what we saw with blacks in the 1960’s could very well happen with other groups, when people feel hopeless you see some pretty bad things happen. Put it this way, do some reading by people who witnessed the 1930’s, not the myth makers of today, and read about just how bad it got, what really was going on, and it wasn’t exactly all “The Waltons”.

Then, too, we have the myth of ‘private charity will take care of it’, it is a load of utter bs, given the scope of the program, any private charity working with the needy will tell you they cannot handle it alone.

You mention a popular myth, that for example of sending kids from poor areas to parochial schools and watch them blossom. It sounds all so tempting, the kids get the discipline of Catholic school, and become useful citizens and so forth. Every conservative worth his/her salt has been promoting voucher programs or school choice (though that isn’t entire altruistic, most of that is to allow religious fundamentalists the right to get vouchers to send their kids to Christian fundmantalist schools, basically using taxpayer money to pay for schools so their kids don’t have to learn evolution or science). The problem with that is there have been studies, Milwaukee did a pilot program like that, as did South Carolina I believe, and the outcome isn’t what people expected, when they did long term longitudinal studies they found the outcomes for the kids who stayed in public school versus those who went to parochial schools didn’t change that much…there are also problems with the parochial school model, because they cherry pick, they can take the kids who already have a parent or parents who take enough interest to have the kid succeed and if a kid is a problem, throw them out. More importantly, with voucher programs and the like, that means they had a parent or guardian who took enough interest to get them into the program, to make sure the kid did well…so for those who do achieve, if the long term studies are right, they might have achieved even if they stayed in the public school.

That doesn’t mean that a program sending kids to parochial schools won’t work, but it means we have to be very careful about how it was done, so that the parochial schools don’t cherry pick the best and leave the rest,it means having people making sure that kids from bad backgrounds get a chance and get the support they need, rather than taking a small percentage who otherwise might have made it and say “see, we did great work”. There are programs doing this, working with the troubled kids, and doing great things, but again the answer comes in finding out what works and applying it, not simply saying ‘the answer is to get rid of all programs and leave it up to the private sector’. The knee jerk “the government can’t do anything right” is classic anti thinking, instead of saying “what works” we get "government bad, private good’ and that is the bleating of sheep in Animal Farm, not thinking.

“He believes that progressive goals cannot be accomplished because of the religious right. He is the legal director of the AHA. This is his occupation, and his obsession.”

The thing is, he is talking about the religious right, he is not talking all the religious. The religious right these days is dominanted by fundamentalist Christians, and he is right in that they as a group block are a hinderance. They are some of the least educated people in this country (a little more than half have a high school degree), and they are people who are anti science, and worse, promote religious belief as science. When it comes to social matters, their whole view is based in a very narrow reading of the bible, and as a result, for example, when it comes to abortion their answer is to throw the bible in people’s faces and say “no sex”, rather than be pragmatic and figure out if you cut down unintened pregnancies, abortion drops. They also tend to have a viewpoint that is very, very black and white, where there is good and evil, wrong and right, and as a result, quite frankly, end up supporting the wrong things (really want an eye opener? Read about fundamentalist Christianity and the religious right and their support of the Iraq war, it is pretty eye opening and sad, to say the least). The US is in a world where we need ideas, where we need to look forward and say “how do we improve, how do we make ourselves better” and people who look back and say “that was a golden age” aren’t exactly gonna bring us to the promised land, every time one of the religious right types opens their mouths the Chinese must be laughing themselves silly.

“It does beg the following questions - how can one help anyone if: 1) cannot openly acknowledge their problems, and 2) cannot openly tell them which behaviors are destructive to them and to their ability to join mainstream society? May explain why none of the intellectual social program solutions ever work really, except on the edges - they never acknowledge or address the fundamental issue.”

Awc, is your objection to teenage-girls-of-any-stripe engaging in premarital sex based on a moral objection (not right to do so before marriage) or is it purely based on a socioeconomic one (because then they’ll have babies you will have to support through tax dollars)? The reason that I ask is that you didn’t seem to moralize about fifty-something men having sugar-baby relationships and indeed seemed to brag that you knew guys like that and it was all cool. Is it only cool because these men could afford to then support any children that resulted? IOW, is it a moral objection or a pocketbook-based objection?

Just in general, is an observation racist if it’s the truth?

Is it racist to say, for example, that Asians have higher SAT scores on average than whites? (presuming that to be true) I wouldn’t believe that to be a racist statement. Now, if you were to say, “I’m going to assume Jian over here is better at math than Thurston over there solely because I know Jian is Asian and Thurston isn’t,” that’s a horse of a different color.

If, indeed (and I don’t know whether this is the case), after controlling for socioeconomic status, black teenage girls have a higher pregnancy rate than other ethnicities, is that a racist thing to say?

Statements of fact are not racist. It would not be racist to say that teen black girls have high TP rates. Since black teen girls have lower TP rates, however, than say Hispanics, it is racist to single them out.

One’s personal experience with “who makes up the poor in my city / state” is going to differ based on where in this country one lives.

I’m still not convinced it’s racist to say that black teen girls have higher TP rates than whites if it’s a true / verifiable statement, even if Hispanics have even-higher TP rates.

Much like it wouldn’t be racist to say that on average, whites score higher on the SAT than blacks, even if Asians score on average even higher.

It is still a truth that 3 is greater than 2 even if 4 is greater still.

It wasn’t just that comment. It was the entirety of the post.

Nor sure if i saw @awcntdb actually condemn premarital sex. Dunno where’s the racism in teaching school age girls that having a baby before u finish school is not a good recipe for economic success.

At the other end of the economic spectrum, at my kids’ boarding schools, the health centers tell me the kids there are PROACTIVE about birth control, bcs these kids know that a teenage pregnancy will shatter their dreams of Princeton & Amherst.

GMT - I didn’t say that there was racism in teaching girls that having a baby is not a good thing! I was just asking since awc is simultaneously a cultural conservative who also has no problem with the sugar baby / sugar daddy lifestyle, and I find it hard to reconcile those two things.

My guess us that aw, in true libertarian form, doesn’t care if sugarbabies have premarital sex, so long as their lifestyle choices don’t entail taxpayers supporting it.

i see no conflict in being libertarian and having conservative social beliefs, so long as you don’t impose your personal beliefs on everyone else by force of law.

@GMTplus7 - The boarding school kids’ parents probably also nag them about birth control use. Many parents provide birth control for them, as do the health centers at many boarding schools. I would not say a lot of abstinence is being practiced, however. But, yes, having hope regarding one’s future prospects is a great deterrent.

As usual, the typical projection of reading what they want to read because of group-think. I never condemned anything. I do not recall even ever mentioning pre-martial sex.

How this for a novel concept - if you want to have pre-martial sex and other entertainment of the PERSONAL sort, do it on your own damn dime and do not saddle society with paying for your genital entertainment! Gees, where is the responsibility that if you want something, you really should find a way to pay for, not learn to live like a lower-class moocher off of other people?

This attitude is symptomatic of what is being trained in poor neighborhoods by the intellectual social programs - the people are hearing this message loud and clear, “I do not have to take responsibility for myself because I have intellectuals saying that other people should pay for me.”

This so full of irony because on CC these same posters rail against the entitlement of some of the students who think they should get into some college or get some merit aid or scholarship. However, if advocating that others pay for your personal sex habits is not the definition of entitlement, not sure what is?

Still begs the question, how do the immigrant females (and males too) survive and strive and not get pregnant at high rates without government having to pay for their genital entertainment, but native-born poor people need government to sponsor their genital frisks? And I highly doubt the immigrant females and males are having less sex - I suspect they are just smarter about it, and do not need others to pay for their jollies.

Yep, culture does matter.

It is really simple - having a baby is a really dumb thing for any young female to do before finishing school - and this should be said to all females of all colors and stripes.

@musicprnt wrote

Sure, ALL private schools teach kids creationism, so best not to allow any poor families have school vouchers to leave their present academically elite public schools in the ghetto <>

If we want to discuss what’s to blame for America’s problems, then let’s talk about the TEACHERS UNIONS. I don’t know of any other professional occupation where one gets automatic lifetime tenure for having a pulse for 2 years. Even college professors undergo a peer review and most don’t make the cut. Why are public school teachers so much more deserving than college professors?

So is the goal to cut the amount of babies young females have before finishing school?

I am willing to pay more in taxes or medical care upfront for others so they can be supplied with birth control.

Future taxes and medical costs will be lower if we pay for birth control.

Economically this is the intelligent thing to do.

And with fewer unwanted pregnancies,there will a better chance for a decent life for others.

This way, people can choose their own religious or social values.

Unless the goal is to convert people to some religious and or social conservative values.

Is that the goal?

To push social conservative values?

Actually, as I showed in the link earlier, I think it is safe to say that immigrant females are getting pregnant at the highest rate of all groups.