<p>Well, a good discussion has ensued, as I had hoped. Frankly, I hoped there would be more people who disagreed with me.</p>
<p>It’s not directed at one post, but inspired by many. There is a reason (noted in my OP) why I didn’t direct this at any one particular post.</p>
<p>I am guilty (if that’s the right word) of this myself, and I’m wrestling with how much “support” to give, and when to let failure to an option and an inspiration.</p>
<p>However, I’m also (I think) realistic, and that helps me guide her in ways that ensure longer-term success.</p>
<p>Anyone who has interviewed as many recent college grads as I have can spot a self-starter from a mile away (because they’re so rare). If we continue to sugar-coat life for them, where will they be when they’re 30?</p>
<p>"If we continue to sugar-coat life for them, where will they be when they’re 30? "</p>
<p>Couldn’t agree more. There are fair greater issues then “my or my husbands” self interest and how “we want to feel” about our parenting or how much we need to bask in reflected glow.</p>
<p>Not all kids (or adults, for that matter) are self-starters.</p>
<p>For me as a parent, I want to know my children well enough to have a sense of what will work best in guiding them.</p>
<p>I think there are some type of support we would all agree is too much help, such as writing a student’s college essay or preventing them from experiencing the consequences of their actions.</p>
<p>But other kinds of help may be necessary for one kid while detrimental to another, and different parents have different philosophies about how much to do for their kids. </p>
<p>For example, personally I feel it is my job to ensure my daughter has at least one college she can attend next fall, but others feel that the process should be entirely self-motivated. On a more mundane level, I do the laundry for my kids whereas others may feel that is over indulgent.</p>
<p>Perhaps it would be fair to say that some kinds of overindulgence are less harmful than others… sending them to summer camp instead of having them work is on a different order than being blind to your child’s weaknesses and teaching your child to expect that others will also excuse them.</p>
<p>On the flip side of people being “unrealistic” about their childs abilities and doing everything for them in order to get them to a “great school”, there are some opposite situations.</p>
<p>There are some students (whose parents I have seen on this forum) that are truly self starters, born leaders and need no prompting. These students are capable of carrying a full load of honors and AP courses while holding a leadership position at school and participating in community service and EC’s.
This kind of student may be rare but they are the ones who excel with very little intervention.</p>
<p>Why then is it that those students or parents of those students get “blasted” on a forum like this. Is it jealousy? Is it that they truly cannot believe that there is a student or students like that because their is not and they are desperatley trying to make excuses for theirs so they don’t want to hear it?</p>
<p>I get just as frustrated to see people “blasting” someone for their students accomplishments, making it a competition or something. What is THAT all about? Anyone?</p>
<p>I think there are all kinds of kids & famililes who visit this forum. I also agree that we all have some bias when viewing our own kids, but TRY to be “fair.” I know that kids can perform poorly when bored but agree that we don’t help our kids by making excuses for them. (I am grateful for the educators who have allowed kids to learn at a different pace from their peers, to try to keep all abilities engaged–tho I’m sure it’s tougher for the educator to keep track of everyone.)</p>
<p>Kids can become self-starters at their own timetable for what interests them (yes, some are late bloomers in this). When my kids are passionate about something, they don’t need us cajoling them to get going & it’s better for all of us. </p>
<p>I can’t see how doing kids’ assignments for them helps our kids (though unfortunately it’s not uncommon). Self-directed folks are not as common as we’d like, even in the work world.</p>
<p>It is easier to complain about parents being too involved than it is to actually deal with some of these situations. While parents should not be overly involved, not every 15 yo is able to understand that not doing homework today means not getting into the college of interest when they are 18. Should parents simply let their kids fail?</p>
<p>I have one of those kids. Well over 90 on all tests, but often got Bs due to other factors. How do you get a 5 on an AP test and not get an A in the class? While kids should do their homework, the point of homework is supposed to be to learn the material. If the child knows the material after 5 math problems, is it necessary to do 15 more? Teachers should, and some do, differentiate instruction and requirements. Kids that understand the material should have to do harder problems than the students that don’t get it. Nobody is well served when the homework becomes simply busy work. </p>
<p>Everyone says that doing grunt homework prepares kids for the real world. To some extent that is true. All of our jobs have some elements of grind and work that is routine. However, if I have to review something in my job I get to do it at my own pace. If I understand it and can apply it after the first reading, nobody makes me read it over and over again. </p>
<p>While I think that parents should not be too involved in their work, it is very difficult to watch a very bright child underachieve due to his own inability to work hard and, in some cases, to somewhat arbitrary teacher demands. It is almost impossible to force a child to work or, even if they do the work, remember to turn it in. I spent much time trying to get my son to work, never told him he was too good for the work, always told him he had to do it, and never complained to a teacher. I might, however, come to a board like this and worry about what kind of school he could get into with his NMF scores and good, but not stellar GPA. If you haven’t lived with a child like that, consider yourself lucky. </p>
<p>I have heard from many adults and from parents with older sons that most kids like this turn out just fine and at some point find out that they have to work hard to get ahead. Not every kid is capable of this in High School and certainly not in the early HS years.</p>
<p>I still find it ironic that parents are blasted for being helicopters if they are involved or for being absent if they are not involved. I have yet to meet the parent that has achieved the perfect balance.</p>
<p>Parental sense of justice/injustice plays into this issue to a certain extent.</p>
<p>Is it “fair” that a bright kid masters the material in a class, acing all the tests, yet gets a B as a final grade because s/he refuses to do pointless homework?</p>
<p>Yea, my kids have “mastered” many subjects & explain it to their peers & teachers, but don’t get the grades to reflect it because they won’t do/turn in some of the busywork or soemtimes don’t participate because the answers seem just too obvious for words. They score great on exams because they do know the materiarl. Intellectually, they KNOW they need to do the busy work but their heart isn’t in it & they make countless careless errors.</p>
<p>Yes, we’ve had the discussion about the “real world” and sometimes having to do pointless things for their bosses who may closely resemble their worst teachers, but sometimes it does get a bit tiring.</p>
<p>How do you get a bright underachiever to do his work? It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure this one out. As the parent, you set the rules. If you find out that he’s not doing his homework or “acting out” in the classroom, you punish the kid. Too many parents are worried about zapping the self-esteem out of their kids and too busy putting their kids on a pedestal. Unfortunately, what you’re doing is not helping them. Do you know how they learn to be self-starters and be self-disciplined? You teach them and you stop reminding them day in and day out what they need to do. If they choose to not to do the classwork because “they’re bored with it”, let them deal with less then stellar grade. They got what they deserved. Don’t blame the teacher for your kid not doing the work. I don’t care if a kid can get a 5 on an AP test. What impresses me is the kid who does the work on his own (and yes, teachers can tell when the work is done by the student and totally appreciates the HONEST effort) and always manages to turn assignments in on time. The kid who does this while balancing an afterschool sport and a part time job or helps run the house while his parents are working 10 hours a day.</p>
<p>The thing I (and H) did for my kids was do the best I could (at considerable expense and personal sacrifice) to make sure they were at schools that did NOT have a lot of meaningless busywork. We were fortunate that we had the resources to provide this kind of education starting in preschool. There were some bumps along the way, especially in the case of one of my kids, but it was all worth it.</p>
<p>All I can say is my GPA under-achieving, 34 ACT, NMSF son deals with ADHD, OCD and Social anxieties. I’m sure he would trade with your everyday bright kid who is just a slacker any day if he could. I’ll be they don’t spend 5 or 6 hours a night doing homework just to get by on their grades.</p>
<p>If a student is putting in 5 to 6 hours of work a night, he’s not considered an underachiever. He’s putting in the effort, completing the assignments, and getting the GPA reflective of the quality of work handed in. An underachiever is the kid who chooses not to complete and hand in assignments even though they are more than capable of doing so.</p>
<p>In comparison to someone of equal intelligence without the stated issues he is underachieving. Since he is a hs senior we have to get the schools to look beyond the GPA to the positives he brings. Traditional schools are built for a certain type of learner. Heaven forbid your child doesn’t learn like that. It doesn’t make them any less able to learn…it just takes a different style. Our D is not as intelligent as our S but is a much better student. Hopefully our youngest will be a nice blend of the two! lol</p>
<p>Of course it’s fair. The idea that it’s somehow not fair is a reflection of the entitlement that we seem to have passed on to our children. I also don’t think parents should be encouraging their kids to decide what is “pointless” and what is worthwhile when it comes to assigned work. They can have their opinions, but they shouldn’t expect to have exceptions made for them just because they think it’s too easy. . Granted that not all kids need the same amount of reinforcement, but if they’re in the class, they should expect to have to produce the work to get the grade. If that involves busywork, oh well.
I do think it’s the parents job to try to match schools with their kid’s achievement levels as much as possible. If work is consistently too easy, a different placement might be the best answer, and kudos to those parents who are on top of things and can make these changes. I know I would (and have), but I wouldn’t want my kids to think they don’t need to do the busywork, even if it’s boring, as long as they are in the situation that requires it.</p>
<p>I agree it is fair also. You get the grade you deserved based on the answer you give. The only think I disagree with is judging the kids soley on the basis of their grades. I’m hopeful the colleges will look beyond that one number. I know they have to use something so we’ll cross our fingers!</p>
<p>“All I can say is my GPA under-achieving, 34 ACT, NMSF son deals with ADHD, OCD and Social anxieties.”</p>
<p>I have a high IQ dyslexic son. All his life he will have to deal with his disability. He’s aware of it and he is the one who needs to learn what he has to do to deal with it. It breaks my heart. I held him close, monitored every class, held my breath with his wonderful teachers and coached him through his elementary years but as he migrated into the upper grades I have released my stranglehold. Repeat, HE has to learn what he has to do to deal with it. I certainly hope he goes to college. He certainly has the intellectual horsepower to do it. But what happens to him will in large part be contingent upon his inner drive, his capacity to compensate for his weakness and his ability to overcome his own obstacles. This is a lesson everyone must learn with or without a disability. It is a lesson all parents need to learn. I want the world for him, but I can’t give him the world solely through MY will. There are all kinds of kids and all kinds of parents on this forum and there is no one road to life success. I love my oldest slacker son, I love my quirky middle son and I love my son who must keep his nose to the grindstone and knows it. They will all find their colleges, their paths to adulthood and I for one will be BEHIND them cheering and not in FRONT of them pushing obstacles out of the way.</p>
<p>But then you later say the parents should stop reminding the kids to do their work and to have the kids deal with the low grades. Which is it? Parents should control or not?</p>
<p>When dealing with this, I did try punishment. What do you do with a kid that is not super social and doesn’t have a lot of toys? How do you punish a kid that doesn’t mind spending time in his room and will read for hours? Do you keep a kid in every weekend until they become depressed? Also tried positive reinforcement, which also did not work well. Getting older, starting to see the big picture, realizing I was right in saying that grades matter is what worked to turn him around. </p>
<p>You also say to have the kid deal with the fallout from a bad grade. What exactly is that fallout? Punishment? See above for how that does not work. Not getting into a decent college? OK, but a kid just doesn’t see that as a reason for doing the work now. Often its the parent that suffers as the kid’s grades are not high enough to secure merit money that higher grades may have gained. </p>
<p>Fortunately for some, many colleges are more impressed by a 5 on an AP test than a hard worker who does not have the grades in honors classes to prove their academic achievement. </p>
<p>Again, it is easy to comment when you are not dealing with this in the real world. It is not always about letting kids get away with it all. Sometimes it is keeping them from making really significant mistakes at a very young age. These are teens, not adults. My kids know they get one shot at college and that is it. But while they are still kids, they are still growing and I can support their efforts to grow up.</p>