The Ivy League of the UK is the Golden Triangle (Cambridge, Oxford, LSE, KCL, UCL and Imperial). They are the leaders in research, have amongst the highest funding, have both local and foreign prestige (they lead in international rankings) and have the highest graduate starting salaries.
Durham and Warwick are hardly known outside the UK. St Andrews is not even as prestigious as Edinburgh. And Warwick is mainly only strong in Economics and Maths.
^ however the situation’s different in the US.
Different in what respect?
In the US: Oxbridge are known and ranked highly by all. Some know of LSE and St. Andrew’s and regard them well.
Even fewer know of Imperial. The other Ancient Scottish unis probably put in this tier as well.
Pretty much only academics and people who are in international circles know of UCL (and those folks would know of Durham and Warwick as well).
To be frank, I disagree with that. I think it is no secret that majority of Americans are quite ignorant of most things outside their shores, but of the few enlightened, many know of Imperial and UCL more than St Andrews.
You can judge these by just review the statistics for Marshall Scholarships. Most applicants are from a diverse range of universities and locations. From their selection of preferred universities, you will see that St Andrews is not that popular or well regarded amongst these most elite of students.
http://www.marshallscholarship.org/about/statistics
Year after year, you will see that preference of, interviewed and successful applicants tend to choose Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, UCL, Edinburgh, KCL and Imperial (in that order).
That should suggest those are the most famous and respected UK universities in the USA. They dominate every year in the applications. Edinburgh is the only one not in the Golden Triangle.
St Andrews rarely ever figure in the top list. It is not even as popular as SOAS or even Glasgow.
I am aware many undergrads from the US go to St Andrews but I think this is just due to the intense royal-orientated advertising by St Andrews and some similarities with the USA education style.
These 7 universities also dominate in popularity at the global level considering other surveys, with St Andrews hardly figuring in the top bracket in these as well:
http://www.nairaland.com/141689/rough-guide-best-most-reputable/11#40286913
Durham and Warwick are also not as know as UCL and not that much known outside the UK. UCL is far more famous than they are.
@LutherVan, you don’t seem American.
Marshall Scholars go for a graduate education. Almost by definition, they are more academia-oriented. If there was a similar-type program for Brits studying in the US, you would see a lot more at our giant public U’s (many of which are research powerhouses) like UT-Austin and UW-Madison than at places like Dartmouth or Brown. Yet Americans would be able to tell you where those schools rank on the prestige scale on the undergraduate level.
Unlike America, I don’t think there is much difference between undergrad and graduate education prestige in the UK. That mainly only applies in the USA.
Even at undergrad level, you can not compare the popularity of Warwick and Durham to UCL in the USA.
If you go to the universities’ websites you will see that while UCL has about 920 USA students studying there (with an additional 600 coming in on a year abroad study), the likes of Warwick have only 150 (with an additional 100) and Durham has 550. Durham provides no study abroad statistics but one can assume that is already in the stated figure.
Edinburgh has over 2000 and LSE has 788. St Andrews did not give any figures but I expect it to be large.
KCL states 1200 from both USA and Canada, while Imperial states only 200 from both USA and Canada.
LutherVan: You’re thinking like a Brit and you’re trying to make that fit with what Americans should think is important.
For Americans there is a HUGE difference between undegraduate and graduate study. There are lots of elite institutions dedicated solely to undergrads, for instance. The whole concept of “college experience” is an American concept that’s very popular abroad, too.
We’re talking reputation among educated Americans. St Andrews definitely outranks Imperial, UCL, and Edinburgh, even though it’s not logical.
Some American universities have the same peculiar reputations abroad, different from what they are in the US.
None of Warwick, UCL, Durham are “popular” in the US.
Warwick actually has a little niche in the “IB at all costs” crowd because of its connections to the City.
Durham has an even smaller niche in the “Hogwarts” crowd.
UCL is basically unknown.
Again, you have to divide the numbers: Americans here on CC are only talking about the undergraduate courses.
What you say - numbers above- may well be accurate but it doesn’t matter.
If you will, St Andrews benefits from “prestigiosity”. NYU is in this category too.
Blame it on good marketing and making it seem like it’s an elite LAC where everyone speaks English but in Europe and cheaper than full-pay LACs.
UCL is in London, which for a substantial number of American students the place to go, if not the main attraction for going to the UK in the first place… Most have never heard of Warwick, and think of NC when they hear Durham. Popularity correlates with familiarity for many people. St Andrews is well known in the US as an undergrad place, less so as a grad school, and grad students are (mostly) looking less for a romantic adventure where you get to wear dashing red robes and more into what the strong schools are in their subject.
CC was built for American students, and all of the ones in this particular forum are looking beyond their shores and trying to get information. This:
is simply unnecessarily rude.
Right. It’s really hard to compare, but a rough mapping would be
Oxbridge= HYPSM
St. Andrew’s= Dartmouth/W&M (somewhere between these 2)
UCL= UCLA/Cal (but with more the recognition of UT-Austin/UW-Madison abroad)
Edinburgh & Durham= UCSD/Toronto
Imperial= GTech/MIT (somewhere between those 2)
No American analogue for LSE.
Even in the US, you have some kids choosing Cal/UCLA over Dartmouth and/or W&M, and in the UK, St. Andrew’s generally ranks higher than UCL and Edinburgh for undergraduate education:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rankings_of_universities_in_the_United_Kingdom
Anyway, I do get a kick out of someone who isn’t American or seem to know how Americans think trying to tell Americans and those who have lived in the States how Americans value UK unis.
Fun times.
@collegemom3717, my intention was not to be rude. If I was trying to be rude, I would have generalised and not have said “majority”. I don’t think it is a secret in many parts of the world about this specific view of Americans and many Americans would not deny it. Many parts of the society is quite insular.
@MYOS1634, I am not trying to make a “fit”. I am utilising all evidence I have seen collated on this.
I think it would be a struggle to argue UCL is less known than Warwick and Durham in the USA when it is one of the most researched universities by US students wanting to come to the UK.
http://www.nairaland.com/141689/rough-guide-best-most-reputable/11#35619205
I agree majority of Average Joes would not know beyond Oxbridge, but of the enlightened clique, UCL is better known than Durham and Warwick.
I have shown you three evidences to back up this point: Marshall Scholar preferences, US student numbers at each university and Google searches by US students.
I know St Andrews is popular amongst US undergraduates.
^ except there’s no difference in your numbers between grad and undergraduate.
Although we can agree that general awareness of any of those three is basically zero. So is awareness of Carleton, Bryn Mawr, Harvey Mudd, and other elite colleges. Recognition means nothing about the University itself.
However you must keep in mind that graduate and undergraduate education are two totally separate segments.
@MYOS1634, I doubt (considering the gaps in students from the US I have shown you attending UCL compared to these other universities) that if only undergrad stats are selected, it would make a difference.
Seconndly, all the graduates were former undergraduates. I am sure you are not saying that: only when an undergraduate decides to go for further studies is when UCL starts becoming more popular.
UCL might not be that well known, but it is far more well known than Warwick and Durham in the USA.
@LutherVan, you still don’t seem to get it. He is indeed saying that that is possible.
There are unis in the US that aren’t hard to get in to as an undergrad but have stellar grad programs and colleges that are terrific for undergrad but don’t have grad programs, so Americans differentiate.
As I noted above, so do Brits, even. For example, St. Andrews isn’t the research powerhouse that UCL is, but for undergrad, even Brits rank it above UCL.
@PurpleTitan, I get the whole undergrad and postgrad difference in the US. I said that earlier.
What I am trying to explain is that that is not the way it is as well in the UK. The top universities at undergrad, tend also to be the top at postgrad.
St Andrews is not as respected in the UK as UCL is, in both undergrad and postgrad. You got that all wrong.
UCL is better and highly regarded in virtually all things in comparison to St Andrews. From employment prospects to starting salary, to research, to reputation, to funding, to alumni, to impact etc.
The local tables are mainly not highly regarded because they are like Customer Services league tables, not Prestige or Academic ability tables because of their use of student satisfaction surveys and facility spend. So don’t get it wrong that because St Andrews and places like Warwick ride high on these tables, they are somehow seen as better than UCL in the UK.
The UK has the G5: Oxford, Cambridge, LSE, Imperial and UCL.
The UK also has the Golden Triangle: Those 5 plus KCL.
All those 6 universities and Edinburgh are like the Ivy League as they are in the top in almost every factor of prestige.
The only thing St Andrews and Durham are really seen as prestigious in is their high average entry tariff, which is more linked to their small size, than the quality of their students or university. They have less seats to fill with bums so can afford to be more selective than UCL, KCL or Edinburgh.
Even in the US, Caltech usually has a higher average entry tariff than HYPSM, that does not mean it is seen as more prestigious.
Even Washington University in St. Louis has higher average entry tariff than many Ivies. That does not mean it is more prestigious.
HYPSM universities have many students of Caltech’s quality but also have extra that might not be of its quality.
UCL, KCL and Edinburgh have many students of St Andrews and Durham’s quality but because of more bums, they have more who might not be.
KCL’s own is even worse because about 14% of its undergrads are studying Nursing, hence the average tariff is dragged down because it is not a prestigious course you can ask for high grades and you can’t close it down or limit intakes as it is fundamental to government policies and government controls demand. KCL can never be in the top 10 for average entry tariff because of this large Nursing school. That does not mean it is not seen as prestigious. It too beats all these universities like St Andrews in prospects, starting salary, research, reputation, funding, alumni, impact etc.
A place like Warwick, some years ago, used to be top 6/7 for entry tariff, but as it has increased intake, it is has fallen almost out of the top 10.
So don’t look at local league tables and argue that you know St Andrews is more prestigious than UCL.
There is very little distortion between which universities are prestigious at undergrad and in postgrad in the UK. It is very different from the US.
@MYOS1634, here is the official overall split of USA students at undergrad and graduate level 42%:58%.
https://www.britishcouncil.org/organisation/press/us-undergraduates-choosing-uk-their-studies
It also tells us which universities host the highest numbers of US students:
Not that much different from the US students Google searches I showed you earlier.
@LutherVan, we’re not talking about British perceptions of prestige, but American ones. And when it comes to UK unis, American perceptions are as I laid out in #23, no matter how much you may not want them to be.
BTW, American notions of prestige (like admission to American elites) are much more fluid than you seem to think.
Almost everyone believes that the Ivies and equivalents (which includes the top LAC’s; some include the top publics as well) are at the top. Only a small portion (heavily concentrated on CC) break HYPSM out from that group. In many/most circles, Caltech most definitely is seen to be as prestigious as HYPSM.
@PurpleTitan, unfortunately I don’t agree with your points on #23 based on all the evidence I have seen and put forward to you that you appear not to want to accept. I find it quite odd a person can be arguing Warwick is better known in the US than UCL.
In regards to the fluidity of prestige amongst Americans, I am very aware of that. I have seen tables like this, so I am quite informed.
http://www.princetonreview.com/college-rankings/college-hopes-worries
http://www.gallup.com/poll/9109/harvard-number-one-university-eyes-public.aspx
So I agree with your point on fluidity. The fluidity is mostly impacted by region.
That said, whichever region you go in the US, at least 4 (if not all) of the universities in HYPSM is likely to be in the top 10 of people’s notion of esteem/elite.
Just like the Marshall Scholarship tables I linked in regards to UK universities, if you list the US universities that have produced the highest number of Rhodes Scholars, you are likely to get at least 4 of the HYPSM universities in the Top 10. If you did another for salaries/selectivity/nobel laureates/endowment, most likely the results will be the same. They might not occupy the first 4-5 positions, but they always show up in the top 10.
Which is like the Golden Triangle too, 4-5 (if not all) of them always figure in the Top 10 of any valid prestige factor in the UK.
There will always be some odd interlopers in the list, but the fact these universities always appear at the top, out of the hundreds (UK) or thousands (US) of universitities, is what differentiates them and makes them prestigious.
Just like Harvard is not the 1st in everything of prestige that one measures, the fact it is virtually almost always in the top 3 is what makes it be seen as the best university in the world.