<p>Cobrat, the Oberlin history you reference was something I witnessed first-hand. The ROTC personnel were not part of the campus, but were visting. Their task was to recruit new graduates in the office that concerned what students might do immediately after graduating. The students of that era were engaged in life-and-death issues, particularly if they had been issued a low draft number and could be drafted into that war. The vast majority of students then wanted the college to take a stand not to allow military recruitment on campus property, but rather (if necessary) it could occur elsewhere in the county for anyone seeking that information. At the time, the inability of military recruiters to take pee breaks did not match up against the feared deaths of recent students overseas, nor Vietnamese people caught by that war. A year later, additional sit-down protests in Peters Hall in front of the office where military wanted to recruit resulted in the college prosecuting students for their tight-knit participation, as they saw it as a free speech violation. Charges against students were eventually dropped. At the time, we all risked suspension from college for our partcipation in that sit-in. THe stakes were very high. </p>
<p>But in fact, the ethic of that school was, and is, to talk things out forever. I don’t recall a culture of shaming or icing out professors who disagreed with majority positions. In fact, at college colloquia on those war issues, some highly respected profs of History and Poli Sci who favored the war were given ample chance to speak and address the student body. People continued to fill their classes, because they were intelectually great in their fields, although we disagreed with their politics on that major issue. </p>
<p>The late 60’s at Oberlin were politically turbulent, but the PC era came in later. </p>
<p>This is a sidetrack to the OP’s topic, I think. Just setting the record straight here. I know you attended the college later than I did, so I just didn’t want the history conflated there.</p>
<p>Er, forgive me for getting carried away with my Oberlin history. Passion topic.</p>
<p>To help return to OP;s topic, and by-the-way to affirm Cobrat, my personal take on the OP’s situation is that it was discomforting because the sub’s tone and aggressiveness, as well as the selectivity, suggests only a negativity. </p>
<p>We all know people who ask, in some upbeat way, about a person. Usually there is follow-up patter. “Oh, you are from Maine? My aunt married someone from Maine, it sounds interesting there. I love lobster.” It sounds as though the sub didn’t DO anything with the information gathered. It did not spin into any interesting exchange, a geography lesson, something to warrant the time spent on this inventory. </p>
<p>To me, this sub sounds ignorant about the dynamics of a classroom. You do not begin a class by dividing up people you don’t know. If I were the teacher, I’d want to know that time was wasted, because it came at the expense of the real lesson plan. It was about what the Sub wanted to know, not what the students needed to learn that day. Big difference.</p>
<p>When I was in high school, our American History teacher asked all the kids who had “ethnic sounding/looking” last names what their ethnicity was, when their family came to the US, etc. This was a mostly white suburban high school. I was proud to share my family history (20th century immigrants) with the class, and didn’t feel singled out or embarrassed by my weird, constantly-mispronounced last name. Also, it was interesting to find out the backgrounds of other students.
I doubt the teacher meant to offend–maybe he was interested in finding out about the different places the students came from, trying to “break the ice.” Maybe this didn’t go off so smoothly (according to the student). Maybe he thought the students would like to talk about their countries of origin or that the class would also find it interesting to get to hear something from their classmates. The offense is all in the student’s telling of the story. Since we are only seeing the student’s report of the “nutty” sub, we don’t really know what happened. It honestly doesn’t sound that nutty to me. Maybe a little awkward, but not something to make a big deal about.</p>
<p>While I agree what the OP’s sub did was othering and possibly not appropriate, I had plenty of teachers ask students about their names when I was in K-12 (often, a Silician/Italian/Irish question).</p>
<p>I currently live in and am from an area where the dominant religion is not the same as in most of the US I’m not a member of said faith, nor is my family. However, my last name is quite common among members of this religion, and my brother, especially, “looks the part.” I’m fairly certain that people here wrongly assume my/my family’s faith on a regular basis. It doesn’t bug me, though it has lead to an occasional awkward moment or two.</p>
<p>Oh good Lord. A loud campus-wide protest over a couple of “and where are YOU froms?”</p>
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<p>Again with the cousins whose feelings/experiences define that of the group as a whole.
As a Hispanic from California and with strong family ties predating the Mexican American wars, I’ve NEVER been asked “where are you REALLY from?” If I were, I’d probably laugh. This is no sore spot among my many family members. I actually have many cousins, aunts, uncles, in-laws, etc. there, and we are all actually a pretty mellow bunch in this regard. Gathering my friends to stage a huge protest or a campaign to get someone fired over at most an insensitive and callous exchange? Uh, no. </p>
<p>The sub in question needs some sensitivity training. This does not require large scale activism, termination of livelihood, or anything so incredibly extreme.</p>
Then people have to stop otherizing themselves. Can’t have it both ways.
And otherizing isn’t necessarily about color. People with funny names can be white, too. That’s my issue with the OP. Not the fact that he or she was bothered, because clearly the sub is a nutjob, but because it was immediately presumed to be racial down the thread, when it’s not clear that that was the case.</p>
<p>Cobrat, based on your posts, it seems to me that you and I are in the same age range. I hadn’t realized that and find it very odd that someone your age is still all about high school and college experiences. The world has changed and those experiences are very rarely relevant anymore.</p>
<p>There are lots of mixed messages in our society vis-a-vis “noticing” race. From the popular “celebrating diversity” themes that our kids were raised with (which tells us to notice race and other different things), to employment discrimination issues (which tells us not to notice race and other different things), to college applications (which often makes being a different race a very important and positive thing), it can become quite confusing. I doubt that most people who ask “where are you from,” are asking with any ulterior motive (but I don’t doubt that some do), other than either small talk or genuine interest. It is probably news to them that such question is highly offensive to some people.</p>
<p>I went to elementary and high school as a racial minority, and often felt left out of social groups that were very segregated by race, but for some reason I didn’t feel it was personal towards me and still felt well-liked by my peers.</p>
<p>First, that’s a form of victim blaming and more of the same unnecessary BS the OP doesn’t need.</p>
<p>Second, who said it didn’t affect White/White looking folks? I cited the case of my HS US History teacher who is White/White-looking and took great offense at students asking about her family’s origins after covering the history of US immigration and mentioning her family came over on Ellis Island. </p>
<p>Her surname wasn’t very unusual/difficult to pronounce for mainstream Americans. She was already in her 60’s when I had her in the mid-'90s and retired not too long afterwards. I surmised it became a sore point with her from her formative years because she was singled out and asked about her family background in an insensitive manner too often by classmates and teachers/adults while growing up in the '40s and '50s.</p>
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<p>There’s an old saying about appropriate time, place, and manner of asking/bringing up something. </p>
<p>That’s the main problem of the sub in OP’s account…and I agree with Paying3Tuitions that it demonstrates a serious ignorance of class dynamics at the very least. He’s also ignoring the fact he has greater relative power to the students he has in his class which is a crucial part of this issue. </p>
<p>Something I find odd as this issue was covered extensively in the teacher training materials/programs my relative/friends attended from the mid’90s with the last one graduating a couple of years ago. What the sub did went completely against what was covered.</p>
<p>Sometimes victims share some blame. I’m not speaking to this thread because it’s gotten silly on here and I know this opinion is not PC but it is reality and continuing to deny it will continue to create more victims. Victims, now, of next to nothing. </p>
<p>What DOES that have to do with that cited case OR this thread. </p>
<p>Especially considering that HS history teacher is living in this millennium. Well-adjusted adults who know her or told about her sensitivity to the subject will avoid bringing up the subject even if it has some tangential relevance to respect her on that. </p>
<p>Same with the OP…though from her account, it’s mainly the sub failed to follow the training every one of my teacher friends has received from their teacher training books/programs with a dash of an inexplicable lack of common sense. </p>
<p>As he was the older adult, teacher…even a sub, and is legally responsible for what happens in his classroom at the time, the onus of responsibility for OP and her classmates’ discomfort falls 100% on his shoulders.</p>
<p>Stan Lee had some saying like “With greater power comes greater responsibility” and all that jazz…</p>
<p>I don’t think there has been any such convention established in this country when it comes to talking about race/ethnicity. As I believe I said early in this thread, it is counterintuitive to me that <em>not</em> talking about race/ethnicity is the way to improve race/ethnic relations. My impression has been that civil rights issues have been addressed best when constantly discussed, brought into the open and into our faces. That is why I am trying to understand why talking about ones’ ethnicity makes some people so uncomfortable and they are offended when it is brought up. I do <em>get</em> the idea of “othering,” but approaching the issue with the idea that saying “where are you from” automatically means that one is being “othered” doesn’t help anyone.</p>
<p>First off, not all subs as implied on this thread are clueless. My H subbed and ended up getting a permanent gig. He was just that good.
With that said, I don’t really see the harm in the dialogue that occurred with the OP and the sub. I get that question all the time, because people just don’t quite know where my ethnicity is. Im not offended. Looking at the context in which the OP told his story, it was a government History class and maybe he us fascinated by our cultural diversity. After all this is America and were are a “melting pot” if all kinds. Why does it have to be anything more than curiosity. This PC has gone a little to far. Im mean, really so what? It just seem he was an enthusiastic teacher. Maybe the OP needs to figure our why this bothered him so much.</p>
<p>The lesson plan which was supposed to be covered was on the Constitution, not the history of immigration. There’s also the manner in which it was asked. Singling out folks and using an insistent tone of voice were both highly inappropriate. </p>
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<p>OP and her classmates were affected by this incident. As with others who say “I wasn’t offended”, it isn’t about you as you weren’t directly impacted by this specific incident. </p>
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<p>More victim blaming BS. </p>
<p>I’m glad I didn’t have you as a sub. </p>
<p>Your post’s tone sounds reminiscent of a sub I had who was so overbearing about her political views to the rest of us students that we immediately reported it to our regular teacher and the vice principals. Thankfully, never saw her again for the rest of my HS career.</p>
<p>Oh please!! This ISNT about me, but I related my experience as a minority. I have been in the same position as the OP. Your opinion is just that, yours. This is my opinion. BTW, I was never a sub. Not would I ever consider it.</p>
<p>Oh good grief, cobrat! Not every little action or word people say needs to be analyzed and placed into a multigenerational story. Not everything needs to relate back to Oberlin or pre 1960s China. </p>
<p>Sometimes, just sometimes, people do or say stupid things. It’s called being human. I sincerely hope nobody in my life remembers every word I say or thing I do the way you do so that they can spout it out on an unrelated topic.</p>
<p>It’s one thing if it’s done in a social venue among equals like a cocktail party among friends. </p>
<p>It’s a totally different thing if it’s done in the workplace. </p>
<p>Especially if it’s someone in a supervisory position or a teacher in charge of students who are legal minors. As Stan Lee says, “With greater power comes greater responsibility” and no amount of wildly speculating about the sub’s “good intentions” or “it’s just a mistake” is going to alter that fact. </p>
<p>I’ve seen colleagues…including some senior to me fired for “saying stupid things” unthinkingly which ended up angering their supervisors and getting them canned. It’s even more serious when doing so violates industry regulations or client confidentiality…such as two attorneys idiotically choosing to discuss a client confidential matter loudly in a public venue and being caught by their managing partner and the client in question.</p>
<p>It is not in the SLIGHTEST BIT disingenuous. I regard ALL names as “ethnic.” Jones is a Welsh name. Kelly is an Irish name. Churchill is an English name. Saucier is a French name. Ritter is a German name. Hernandez is a Spanish name. Andersen is a Danish name. Saarinen is a Finnish name. Baird is a Scottish name. Genovese is an Italian name. Topalian is an Armenian name. Nazimova is a Russian name. Patel is an Indian name. Papazoglou is a Greek name. Park is a Korean name. Fujisaki is a Japanese name. And so forth. All of the bearers of these names are EQUALLY “American.”</p>
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<p>But as you see, I am not “pretending” not to see a difference between the names. </p>