Is it okay for teachers to ask about students ethnicity?

Parent Cafe
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<p>^^Good post. So your D would be offended- or simply find it inappropriate?
And, I may be one of the few who finds it uncomfortable to label this sub a possible nutjob just because OP used the term. In my world, it’s a casual term. Dismissive but not in itself indicative that he was a mental case, unstable or a threat. I thought she offered it as a casual assessment. Not definitive.</p>

<p>And, what led you to feel asking abut the coworker’s name was over the line? Did you ever ask other things- was she married, did she have kids? or wait for all that to come from her? Or, was there no opportunity to interact?</p>

<p>Unlike some accusations on this thread, some of us are not saying it is fine to pry- but that it isn’t always a bad thing to get to know others.</p>

<p>I’m not asking for critique from you-know-who. Just asking HC for some addl info.</p>

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<p>This thread has been discussing the topic of what is referred to as superstitious behavior for at least the past 90 minutes.</p>

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<p>Here’s the tagline from an article of superstitious behavior from Scientific American: The tendency to develop superstitious beliefs was probably selected for during evolution, because it’s much better to be safe than eaten.</p>

<p>So, perhaps some will feel more highly evolved. :frowning:
So much for going back to Georgia.</p>

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<p>Thank you, lookingforward. I think I can say that D would be offended. Speaking for her, which is always dangerous, I think she meant that you should just call out the names, hopefully get the pronunciation right, and go on to the next kid. High school kids are often super sensitive. Any discussion about where you came from could take place at another time. Not roll call. </p>

<p>Why didn’t I ask my student/coworker about her name? I don’t know. She was a beautiful girl, and surprised me by being the highest scorer in the class. She had a son, and she was very young, and it seemed like she was just looking for a job, and doing the best that she could. I worked with her every day in training, but after that she was on her own. Her first name WAS strange, for the time. It had a hyphen in it!If I got the chance to be her friend on a more intimate level, I’m sure it would have come up. I don’t know, I’m proud of myself that I didn’t ask, and acted like her name was normal. Which it was, after all.</p>

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<p>The questions appear to be contextually inappropriate, based on it being selectively asked during roll call as described by the OP, even though they may be perfectly fine in other situations.</p>

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<p>It’s really hard for me to give gthe benefit of the doubt to anyone who ignored a lesson plan when their job was to deliver it. That already tells me they don’t have the students’ interest at heart. I’m suspicious of people who interrupt a conversation in order to inquire about someone’s ethnic, racial, religious or geographic origins. That suggests that, to them, this is the most important thing about the person. In fact, when students are sitting in a classroom, the most important issue on the table is: what is the learning that is supposed to occur, and who understands or needs more help with that. </p>

<p>I believe there are ways to ask things with open-minded curiosity. It would be evident by the tone and follow-up questions. If someone’s agenda was benign, and they really just wanted to know in order to know where you’re from, that would not be followed up by belittling interrogation about what someone does, or doesn’t know, about their own country of origin.</p>

<p>I did once witness that process. In Canada, immigration officers became expert on what was happening in troubled countries around the globe. When someone applyied for refugee status based on political persecution in their country of origin, the government official could suss that out by asking questions about the country. It was designed to trip people up, testing the veracity of their claim. Frankly, unless someone is being interrogated by a government, I don’t think the teacher (who is, by the way, understood to represent “the government” in a public setting) should be questioning in an intimidating manner, just because the teacher is curious. What right does the teacher have to even know the answer to these questions? </p>

<p>I think it’s commendable that this OP, who had a gut feeling during the experience, was so open to want a reality check among other intelligent adults to confirm or dissuade her (?) from the initial gut reaction. That takes courage, and I appreciate it. CLearly the parent community here is not unanimous on either side.</p>

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<p>Unfortunately, I know from personal experience that teachers do not always leave detailed or even any lesson plan while they are gone.
I am a big teacher advocate, but the kids should always come first.
It’s possible that without much guidance, subs are looking to fill time as well as establish a rapport with the class as best they can.</p>

<p>Subs are also often pretty inexperienced teachers & may not have strong social skills, which is why it can be easy to lead them down the path towards anything but productive classroom discussion.
( actually that’s what I remember about some of the regular teachers too, especially those who were coaches. Just get them talking about the team & wait for the bell to ring)</p>

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<p>In the 37 pages of this thread, there really has been more than one issue of contention. There are many who feel that the situation described in the OP could range from anywhere between no big deal to inappropriate to racism. </p>

<p>But that is not the only question which this thread has evolved to discuss. Completely separate from the incident described in the OP, an offshoot of that has gone in another direction to the suggestion that it is never okay to ask the origin of a person’s name or even ask where they are from or their ethnicity. That asking “where are you from?” is a loaded question which is never appropriate. That saying “that is a beautiful name. What is the origin of it?” would be an “othering” of the individual, suggesting their name was somehow “different.” I, for one, am in the camp of saying “why in the heck is it rude to simply ask where a person is from?” I vigorously disagree that one’s country of origin or ethnic heritage is of such a personal nature that one should immediately assume that the person asking is either racist or has some kind of negative agenda. Or that they are rude or insensitive or insulting.</p>

<p>“Why would you ask that question?” or “Why do you want to know” has been a great way to get people to stop and consider the nature of a question in my experience. It usually results in them either rephrasing their question to make it obvious that their intent was not to insult, or it has the result of confirming my suspicion that they are being a jerk. Every once in awhile, it gets them to examine their own attitude about a given situation. At minimum, I am not left to wonder about their meaning. And before I decide to view someone as a jerk, I really do want to have an accurate take on where they are coming from rather than just making an assumption. </p>

<p>The OP at this time as only learned that some would deem the situation completely inappropriate or even racist and still others find it anywhere from completely innocent to mildly inadvisable. There is absolutely no consensus. Maybe she doesn’t care what the sub meant by these questions or whether or not she correctly interpreted his actions. Perhaps she only wanted her reaction to them validated. If so, she can feel that they have been, so for her perhaps the thread has served its purpose.</p>

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<p>Hot Canary,
Thank you!!!</p>

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<p>I am jumping into this now. I think in terms of asking the question, there are a few things going on. There is that exoticizing factor, where you are expecting the person to be interesting and different and defining them in terms of their perceived culture. Somebody who meets a woman from Saudi Arabia might start wondering about questions that are much more personal than country of origin, and even making assumptions - did she escape an arranged marriage where she’d be the fourth wife; does she know how to read; did she undergo FGM; did she have to escape by sneaking across the border on a horse, etc? People have a lot of stereotypes about other countries.</p>

<p>I have a cousin (I’m sorry, I’m opening that can of worms by talking about my cousin) who is mixed race (black/white). The people who asked her the most about where she was from were guys trying to pick her up in bars and getting into the idea of her being from somewhere else. I’m using past tense because she’s married and has a child and is no longer in that situation ever. She does get a lot of people assuming that she is her daughter’s nanny (her daughter has lighter skin than her). But most of the casual acquaintances who’ve asked her about racial origin were drunk guys who thought it would be hot to hook up with someone from somewhere else.</p>

<p>I also have a friend who shares a very common Middle Eastern last name with a somewhat recently killed, very hated in the US, Middle Eastern dictator. You can probably figure out who I’m talking about. Her sister actually had a teacher ask her in school, in front of the class, if she was related to the dictator.</p>

<p>I would have hated that question in high school simply because I hated being put on the spot. I was shy. And I have a long, complicated name (that I have never heard of anyone unrelated to me having), but I am clearly white and English is my first language, and I very rarely get asked about my name.</p>

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<p>I think many people have pointed this out already.</p>

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<p>This thread has well over 500 posts, limewine. Sometimes posters haven’t read all the posts, or might benefit from being pointed to some of the posts that you feel have answered their question. Heck, I cant even find the post you quoted. Where is that one?</p>

<p>*** Oh I found it-- # 540.</p>

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<p>Getting back to the research…there have been numerous studies on creating a safe environment for students. When dealing with multicultural classrooms there are guidelines. It is not a matter of “opinion,” but something that has been well documented. One of the first things teachers are expected to do is to face their own biases (intentional or not, they still exist)</p>

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Teachers are also taught to be aware of triggers that can seem “no big deal,” but can cause students to feel uncomfortable.</p>

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<p>The OP expressed she was uncomfortable…yet many are blaming her ( a child in a classroom). It may be time to reflect on our own biases.</p>

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<p>Another perspective -</p>

<p>I also have to agree that I don’t consider asking the origin of someone’s name a very personal/private question. You can simply type into Google “<name> origin” and get the information, so it’s pretty easily accessible.</name></p>

<p>Although I was a very shy HS student too and I would have hated to be asked to speak to the class unprepared, but that’s a different matter entirely and has nothing to do with the ‘appropriateness’ of the question.</p>

<p>A few have mentioned that not all teachers leave lesson plans and that since the sub had a lesson plan to follow, it was his job to follow it, but OTOH, some teachers just leave ‘busy work’ for subs to hand out when they’re out to give the class something to do. It may be that the sub considered that this was an AP class and seeing that there was only a worksheet available, assumed that it was just ‘busy work’ to keep them occupied and was actually trying to use the time to better educate these students. It seems from the exchange when after the sub was told about the origin of the last name that he immediately asked ‘Do you know about the political tension and terrorism going on in Nigeria’ that he was ALREADY AWARE of the origin of this particular name. He may have been trying to spawn a discussion on the issues going on in Nigeria. That could have been an amazing learning opportunity for the class, it could have broadened their world views since many of the students probably have no awareness of that part of the world. Was it the most sensitive way to broach the issue? Perhaps not, but personally I’m all for any learning opportunity that can be presented to students.</p>

<p>I mentioned a few pages ago that my son is 1/4 Indonesian ethnically. He knows VERY little about his heritage and usually has to think for a few moments when someone asks where his ancestors came from. His paternal great-grandparents fled Indonesia for political reasons and settled in Holland. They later relocated to the US where they rasied their family. No one in the family holds Indonesian citizenship any longer (his great-grandparents have since passed away), they do not like to acknowlege their Indonesian heritage, and talk very little about their family’s history. I would love for my S to understand his family’s history and how they came to be in the US, but political correctness and keeping such issues private are not only keeping the world at large from learning aobut such issues, but also keeping some of those directly involved, such as my son from even understanding his own history.</p>

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<p>Even if it is at the expense of another student?</p>

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<p>This is long and about me, but says what I need to say.
I’ve liked many posts, but several recent ones made sense to me. This thread quickly got a spin. “I wouldn’t mind” or “I ask” on one side and racism at the other extreme, also with tales of what some minorities have experienced, how they feel about that- and discomfort, at the least. IMO, some posters were hinting they know better than others. Touches of outrage. There was misrepresentation of what OP actually said (or actually knew) and what other posters wrote or thought. Too much arcing. All sorts of hubbub about subs. Face it, it crowded out many who may be thinking.</p>

<p>I think race is a hot button. We can’t hold a discussion, even on CC, without getting emotional, defensive or even aggressive. I think we are so “race conscious” that it jumps off the page, colors our views, even when we think we are being generous. That categorizing, by race or ethnicity, that pooling, is tricky, at best. </p>

<p>My older relatives were immigrants, living in one of those enclaves; editing for length, but I became fascinated with the whole issue of background and the “coming to America,” becoming Americans, the different traditions and how they flavor some of us. Did grad work in that arena. Yes, it was and is exotic, to me. </p>

<p>And now I can see ucb’s point, in the answer to Bay. Perhaps contextually inappropriate. Mr Man could have asked all the kids, if he were so interested in actual roots; or asked some later. </p>

<p>But rather than indicting it as “otherizing,” which suggests segregating and sorts of loaded issues, Eireann’s “exoticizing” shows me that this personal curiosity- mine, a sub’s or a poster’s- is about what WE take from the info. What we want to know. A good thinking point. I’m still thinking- but realize maybe our own innocent curiosity won’t always be enough justification. </p>

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As for subs- not comfy with overstating our personal expectations of how they are supposed to operate- we all know there is no universal. And, much as I personally toss out the term nutjob, we should be careful how we use it.</p>

<p>Lime, can you steer me to a reference- I couldn’t find one.</p>

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<p>limewine- Can you kindly provide some links to research or the documentation on this issue that you are referring to? And if there are any published policies or guidelines for teacher/ subs on this issue, that would be helpful to see.</p>

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<p>I doubt that was the case considering the OP felt he was “wasting their time” in the class in question, which was AP US Government. </p>

<p>OP later mentioned the lesson plan was supposed to cover the topic of the US Constitution and mentioned the class was already “crunched for time” in covering all the material needed in the course. If so, discarding the regular teacher’s lesson plan on the Constitution made even less sense. </p>

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<p>Except this was an AP US government class, not AP Comparative Politics. And the approach he took to spark the conversation was not very effective judging by OP’s reaction and some classmates who were also made uncomfortable by his manner in roll call. </p>

<p>He also later went on a 30 minute tangent on the even more irrelevant topic of Idioms and in the process, inappropriately insulted the OP when her knowledge of the topic wasn’t up to his standards which makes the theory to maintain AP class standards even less tenable.</p>

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<p>@ Limewine -</p>

<p>Even if it’s at the expense of another student?</p>

<p>Well, no, I don’t think a learning opportunity should be at the expense of another student, but IMO I don’t believe this was at ‘the expense’ of any student.</p>

<p>As noted, anyone in the class could simply have Googled the students name to learn about it’s origin. Anyone in the class could have Googled Nigeria to learn about the history there. This is not private information. This is not about sharing personal secrets with the class but sharing information that is easily accessible by anyone who cares to take a few seconds to use Google. The OP was uncomfotable speaking to the class, but many students get uncomfotable when teachers ask them to respond to questions they don’t know the answers to, ask them to share something they’ve written, ask them to give oral presentations, but despite the discomfort, those are all legitimate learning experiences. If the teacher asked personal questions about the OPs family - ‘was your family involved in the political tension or terrorism in Nigeria?’ ‘do you know anyone personally involved in the recent events in Nigeria?’ that would have crossed a line, but to ask the student to share infromation that is publically available - ‘are you aware of the current events in your family’s country of origin?’ is not really at anyone’s expense.</p>

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<p>Off to work so I will try to get links later. You can google teaching in a multicultural classroom to get a start.</p>