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</p>
<p>Some immigrant students and/or their families may be reluctant to answer such questions because of fears arising from the fact it was a taboo or risky topic to discuss publicly* back in their country of origin. </p>
<p>Especially if there’s a fear that extended family still in such countries may be endangered if word of such discussions somehow got back to the state/local authorities, however remote the chances of it may be.</p>
<ul>
<li>Including classrooms.</li>
</ul>
<p>Look forward to your links, limewine. No time to research this at the present-- so appreciate you providing the references of which you speak.</p>
<p>Also would again like to know/ see if there are any written policies/procedures about these issues in teacher handbooks. Someone else brought that up and its not easy to find. So if anyone can provide- much appreciated.</p>
<p>@cobrat</p>
<p>Assuming the sub was aware of the lesson plan that was left, there is very little chance he would have known that the class was ‘crunched for time’ unless the teacher specifically noted ‘We are very crunched for time, please address these issues’ - however when teachers are out unexpectedly due to illness, child’s illness, accident, emergency situation, the lesson plan left may not be current, also even when advanced absences are planned teachers, especially in high school settings leave very general lesson plans/busy work for subs to provide because there is no way to know if the sub is going to be trained/knowledgeable in your subject matter - you may very well have a sub with a math background subbing in a foreign language class or a sub with a science background subbing in a social studies class.</p>
<p>As for the OP saying it was ‘wasting their time’, my S would have told you that about 85% of high school was a waste of his time. I’m still all for any learning opportunity whether the students immediately see the value in it or not.</p>
<p>During my S’s senior year of high school he was involved in Speech/Forensics competitions. These were TOP students, who received their topics in advance to research. It was FRIGHTENING how little they knew. I judged one session in which students were asked to speak about the UN in a discussion format and address several questions. One student authoritatively commented that the UN’s opinions shouldn’t be valued because there are only (8 or 10) members of the UN <i don’t="" recall="" the="" exact="" number="" he="" mentioned,="" it’s="" been="" a="" few="" years="">. Not one of the other students in the room argued or debated his ‘fact’. In fact they continued to discuss how the minority shouldn’t have power over the majority for several minutes. As a judge, I was not allowed to commment until their session was over. Every week I was left astounded by what I thought was VERY basic knowledge that these students lacked, I just kept trying to convince myself that maybe I didn’t know it when I was 18 either.</i></p><i don’t="" recall="" the="" exact="" number="" he="" mentioned,="" it’s="" been="" a="" few="" years="">
</i>
<p>I’m just going to address the name thing.</p>
<p>First day of Ancient Greek in college. Professor looks at my name on the sheet and says, thoughtfully, “That isn’t Indo-European, is it?”</p>
<p>Oh, the horror! The lifelong emotional scars! Of course, I was already scarred from years of teachers being unable to pronounce my name. From years of kids laughing when I was asked to spell it and the first two letters when pronounced separately were a slightly naughty expression. Right? Did I <em>like</em> this? (Not the professor, that was fine, but the kids laughing.) No. But every kid has something. While it is important to be sensitive, it is also important to assume good intentions and to develop resilience.</p>
<p>Look, I spent a lot of time interviewing complete strangers in their homes over the last few years. I’ve talked with immigrants from Somalia, Burundi, Easter Europe, Iraq, Afghanistan, Viet Nam, Cambodia, you name it. I’ve talked to people with names of every possible ethnicity. (French names are a particular minefield here, since they are pronounced in multiple strange ways. I’ve known at least three families whose name was Saucier, and NONE of them pronounced it the same way, and none of them pronounced it as the French would.) I had to record their names, and the names of all of their children. I often ease the situation when someone has a difficult–to my ears–name by saying “My name is _________, so you can imagine the pronunciations I get!” We always had a mutual chuckle, because they recognized that they had as much of a problem with MY name as I did with THEIRS.</p>
<p>I recall interviewing a delightful Iraqi family. The teenage girl with good English who did the translating for me was delighted when I remarked that her name meant “light,” and wasn’t that pretty. There was another sib whose name meant “beautiful,” which I also remarked on. I also commented to her that the way she pronounced Iraq was lovely, and that I had obviously been mangling it for years. Far from being offended, they were very pleased.</p>
<p>Yes, in that context it was my JOB to ask their names, but my personal “outreach” that made it clear that we were equals in that regard, the fact that I was in effect saying that all kind of names can be challenging, rather than making stupid statements about what is “American” and what is “normal” made all the difference. The idea that it is always rude to ask about names is just ludicrous to me. I do not find it rude when someone asks me about mine.</p>
<p>I do find it somewhat rude when they make it clear that they consider my name to be “other” by loudly declaring that they aren’t even going to try to pronounce it.</p>
<p>It is all in the context, the motivation, the way the question is asked. If a question about names and origins is asked in a way that makes it clear that the African name and ancestry is no less “American” than the English name or the German name, that recognizes that ALL of our ancestors immigrated here at some point, it is not offensive. </p>
<p>According to the OP’s story, the sub did not handle it in that way. That is why she felt uncomfortable. In the context of a HS classroom roll call, his curiosity would have been better left unexpressed. If he glanced through the list and saw some names he knew he couldn’t pronounce correctly, he should have said up front, before starting, “Now if I mispronounce anyone’s name, please feel free to correct me. I’m interested in names and always happy to learn.”</p>
<p>Nice post, Consolation.</p>
<p>My maiden name is one that has two possible pronunciations and I know I disliked it mightily when the wrong one was used, I nicely corrected it, and people continued to use the wrong one. In real life settings, I do make it a point to make sure I call people by the name they prefer (are you Jennifer or Jen, do you spell your name Cathy or Kathy, etc.).</p>
<p>My maiden name was a very obviously Jewish last name as well (which was rather wasted on me since I wasn’t being raised that way, but whatever, it sent a signal). I don’t know that I would have been too pleased if my name had been called and the teacher said, “Hmmm … XXXXXX. Is that a Jewish name?” It’s not that the question itself is a “bad” question, it’s that you don’t know whether the intent behind it is benign idle curiosity or whether there’s mal intent behind it. I can see not liking it, but I agree with the post above that it is all in the context, motivation and how it’s asked.</p>
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<p>One thing which puzzles me about this is that everyone I knew who took AP classes in my circle of friends, even those who didn’t attend a public magnet school weren’t left with worksheet type busywork which didn’t facilitate their preparation for the AP exam and sometimes more.* </p>
<p>All work assigned when the AP teacher was absent was relevant and the subs who were trained…or at least had some strong working knowledge did at least a reasonable job in giving such lessons from the lesson plans left by the regular teacher. </p>
<p>Even if the sub wasn’t able to cover the lesson plan, he/she usually wouldn’t go about roll call and subsequent discussions in such an insensitive and inappropriate manner. </p>
<p>Also, the OP later mentioned that he did assert he was a retired AP US History teacher. While I’m a bit skeptical based on topics he chose while subbing OP’s class, if that was the case, he should have had the training to teach AP US Government judging by how teachers I’ve known who taught one were always qualified to teach the other.</p>
<ul>
<li>Some AP instructors went well beyond the AP curriculum which enriched the class while more than preparing them for the AP exam.</li>
</ul>
<p>Cobrat, I know this might be hard for you to grasp but maybe… just maybe… school has changed since the 2-3 decades since you were in high school. </p>
<p>I had subs in my AP classes (and all others) in high school. I honestly don’t remember anyone particularly good or bad because people I meet once don’t make an impression on me like they appear to do on some people. </p>
<p>FWIW, Hot, I am the same age as your D and I didn’t have any “absolutely not!” reaction. I almost wonder if this might vary by region/place. Where I went to high school, we had a very large population of immigrant/immigrant children from India. It wasn’t uncommon to ask where the student and/or his/her parents were from for one reason or another. I honestly do not remember anyone taking offense or being defensive. They very well may have been and kept quiet but I sincerely doubt anyone thought they were being singled out because they didn’t “deserve” to be there. OTOH, if I was somewhere that historically or currently had racial tensions (nearby Dearborn for example), I might feel completely differently.</p>
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<p>Can’t always assume that. Sometimes, they’ve observed or experienced firsthand how letting their feelings of being singled out or “othered” tended to provoke angry outbursts or passive-aggressive reactions like “you must be mistaken” by those in the dominant majority who are ignorant or worse, don’t care to be sensitive and from such reactions concluded it wasn’t worth the trouble to speak out. </p>
<p>I’ve witnessed/experienced several reactions* like this and heard about many more from others with similar experiences. </p>
<ul>
<li>One incident which stood out was when one former childhood friend I hadn’t seen for a decade had an angry outburst upon being informed by several of us that it was inappropriate to use the epithet “Jap” when referring to Japanese-Americans when he uttered it repeatedly at a social gathering where there were several Japanese-American acquaintances.</li>
</ul>
<p>Cobrat, you seem to have a circle of friends and associates who are either horribly dense or horribly persecuted. You must lead and exhausting and frustrating life.</p>
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</p>
<p>If you get close to those who have had such experiences and they feel comfortable enough to tell you without feeling you may try invalidating/denying their lived experiences, you may find such experiences are much more common than you might imagine.</p>
<p>Especially if you’re not part of that particular affected group.</p>
<p>The fact is, that as some of us have tried to make clear, there may not really BE as much of a “dominant majority” as you think. All “white” people do not have the same background, ancestry, names, religion, baggage, and so forth. Don’t make these assumptions: you are, as a friend of mine once said, “comparing your insides to everyone else’s outsides.” No, I am not denying that racism and sheer ignorance exists. But if people are steadily educated, things change. That is part of the joy and the challenge of living in a diverse democracy. </p>
<p>I have to say that I despise identity politics and I think that it is a bad thing for people to actually be ENCOURAGED to take offense constantly. People need to get used to the idea that this is a big nation of immigrants, and the fact that YOUR parents recently immigrated from wherever does not make YOU put-upon in some special way in the big scheme of things. For god’s sake, read Arrowsmith by Sinclair Lewis and see people mocking and stereotyping “dumb Swedes.” That blond Nordic goddess named something like Eklund that you may think of as quintessentially “American” may well have had grandparents who were made fun of because of their ethnicity.</p>
<p>We are a work in progress. Both more sensitivity and less would be helpful, IMHO.</p>
<p>Cobrat, what we are trying to say is, you seem to have two channels: on one hand. how it was or is, very specific to you and your friends, family and folks you have run across; what they experience, have experienced or said-- and how definitive that is. And on the other hand, how horrible and awful a situation could turn; how things could run rampant, lead to devastating consequences.</p>
<p>We want you to meet us in the middle. Relate an anecdote or two, sure. But not on and on, as if there’s a 20 volume set of these, waiting to be flipped through. And skip the nuclear winter stuff.</p>
<p>And I wouldn’t have had- or have in the future- an issue with being asked, if it were relevant to a conversation or the relationship being forged. </p>
<p>But if I now were subbing (in effect, a temporary place in a group,) saw a number of unusual surnames on the roll, I think I’d ask myself if my curiosity comes from exoticizing, seeing (what I think are) different names and letting my own interest run unchecked- or if I can justify the question. </p>
<p>D1 worked closely with local immigrant ms and hs students during college. It could be natural in that setting, as kids opened up, to ask some questions. She’s in a 2nd world country now, one of two Americans in the district; I know she gets questions, but she has put herself out there in the community, has a role as an outsider.</p>
<p>I worked in a company where the majority of the tech staff were either born in Asian or SE Asian countries or were the children of immigrants from those areas. Sometimes, a name didn’t reveal whether they were, say, Korean or Chinese. A point would come when we were talking about parents or early life, schooling, some of our family patterns today- and yes, at the right point, one could ask another some specific questions.</p>
<p>What I now wonder is if a sub could justify focusing on a few kids. He’s not there to build any real closeness. He had other ways he could have, in effect, broken the ice. I just think he was clumsy and unaware. But I can see why- for various reasons- OP didn’t agree with it. It was about him, and his relationship with them was short term. Transient.</p>
<p>Romani, it’s clear that there are many possible reactions to this situation, haha. We live in a very diverse part of the country, but our town, not so much. That could be the reason for her reaction, for sure.On the other hand, she did say that nobody questioned her friend’s name, except how to pronounce it. </p>
<p>I would never think that all 23 year olds think the same. My 19 year old son is coming home from school this weekend. I wonder what his take on it would be. He once had a Spanish teacher who seemed to hate boys, and made what I considered inappropriate jokes. S didn’t like her, but didn’t think it was worth it to complain to anyone. Except for me, of course.</p>
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<p>I mentioned “dominant majority” because it may not necessarily be Whites or based on racial/ethnic factors. </p>
<p>As for the issue of “taking greater offense”, some of that has actually factored into making our society a more inclusive one where people are less willing to accept discriminatory or insensitive behavior than was the case even 10-15 years ago. </p>
<p>For instance, many publicly uttered slurs and derogatory comments about racial/ethnic groups and other marginalized groups like GBLTQ which were once tolerated even in NE urban areas in many areas of life into the late '80s are no longer as commonly acceptable. </p>
<p>Just look at the boycotts against Chick Fil-A or Barilla Pasta because their owners/CEOs support anti-GBLTQ organizations or made openly anti-GBLTQ remarks. I can’t imagine the widespread degree of such boycotts happening 15-25+ years ago.</p>
<p>While there’s still a long way to go, the “taking greater offense” is part of that very progress in our society.</p>
<p>Haha sorry, Canary, I wasn’t trying to say that one of us was more representative of our generation than the other… I was just musing :)</p>
<p>I know! This topic really has me thinking. A lot of interesting points have been made.</p>
<p>I just left a Starbucks, and the woman at the register asked the man in front of me, “where are you from?” when she heard his accent. He replied “the UK,” and she then told him that she asked because once she assumed a customer was from Australia because of his accent and he got upset because he was from the UK. Hearing this timely interchange made me wonder why people get upset when you guess wrong. It seems to say something about their own prejudices if it makes them upset to be associated with another country other than their own.</p>
<p>Bay, a similar situation happened to me, too!</p>
<p>After class, a few classmates and I walked into the elevator. One girl was international and she an a guy were discussing where she was from. She exclaimed, “Wow, you guessed right!” I was talking with another girl and tuned and asked, “Guessed what right?” She said the guy had guessed correctly where she was from. I said, “Oh, where you from?” She answered that she moved to Florida from Mexico. I responded back with, “Oh. I would’ve guessed Honduras.” The guy then got all huffy and puffy saying, “Why would you guess that? That’s not where she is from.” He was greatly offended for some reason and to this day, I, and the others in the elevator, have no clue why he was so offended.</p>
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<p>However, members of visible minorities who are native born citizens can find it tiresome to repeatedly get such questions with the assumption that they are of foreign origin. This is especially the case in a social or political climate where open hostility against immigrants (not just illegal ones, but against all immigrants as indicated by desires to reduce the amount of legal immigration) is not exactly rare to find.</p>