<p>LOL, oh Asa, do you think you’re smart because you “tricked” me into asking for a public school? Obviously Berkeley is going to be less selective, but only for in state students. In terms of admissions, some of the Ivies pale in comparison to Berkeley’s selectivity for OOS students.</p>
<p>Common means that it belongs equally to two or more parties. Because all qualified California residents pay in-state taxes, Berkely is a common university in the sense that it belongs to all of the students of California. I agree that is selective and it only takes top students - but compared to Yale, it is considerably more “common,” yet somehow boasts a more remarkable faculty.</p>
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<p>I don’t believe the OP was going with that definition for “common.” Perhaps the OP can confirm.</p>
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<p>In terms of what? Are you saying that overall the faculty at Berkeley is “better” than the faculty of Yale? Provide hard evidence. What do you have against elite institutions?</p>
<p>I’ve already delineated what I meant. Look at the percentage of faculty members that are nobel winners, McCarthur fellows, etc. </p>
<p>I don’t have anything AGAINST “elite” institutions. I just think that if you can get an education tantamount or superior to that of an “elite” school for a fraction of the cost, why would you pay?</p>
<p>Also, beefs, I am happy to “provide hard evidence:”</p>
<p>In the history of EACH school, Berkeley has had 15 Nobel Laureates affiliated with the University, and Yale has had…4. I don’t know how many of each are still on the faculty or associated with each school.</p>
<p>Feel free to visit nobelprize.org to verify this information for yourself.</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>berkeley may be common to CA residents, but it most surely isn’t very common for the rest of the country. 92% instate. the preference is clear. it’s a state university that shows a very high bias towards its own residents–something replicated to a smaller extent in other state universities, to be sure.
berkeley is also a HUGE state university (about 5-10 times larger than most ivy league schools, twice as big as cornell). obviously, there will be more faculty. </p>
<p>And why are we assuming that Nobel Laureates are automatically better teachers?</p>
<p>Note: according to this 6-year old article ([Yale</a> Bulletin and Calendar](<a href=“http://www.yale.edu/opa/v31.n7/story1.html]Yale”>http://www.yale.edu/opa/v31.n7/story1.html)), 23 Yale graduates have received Nobel Prizes (and at least 10 work/worked on the faculty). I don’t know where you got 4 from.</p>
<p>No the education at a more selective school is not the same as a “common” school. Even if the books are the same, a good professor is going to cover the material in a way that the students understand. For example, in a math course, a good professor will make certain that if students are stuck on chapter 3, they will not go on to chapter 4 until 3 is understood. The level of an average student at a selective school is higher and therefore the professor can go through the material faster and cover more.</p>
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<p>Please try this argument when you’re from Montana.</p>
<p>Also, I wonder if one of the reasons why Berkeley has such a high in-state enrollment also has to do with the fact that if you’re out of state you could probably get into an ivy or, if you’re into engineering, a top notch tech school and pay the same price, if not less.</p>
<p>Many profs at Ivy League schools send their kids to schools like Kenyon. They know that the Ivies use too many teaching assistants.</p>
<p>Enderkin:</p>
<p>Where did you get the idea that someone related the Nobel prize to good teaching standards? I simply used that as evidence for my statement that the faculty was REMARKABLE. Note that I never said that they were more or less qualified to teach. Though I don’t think universities would give a prospective applicant to a professorship the cold shoulder if he or she was a Nobel Laureate, do you?</p>
<p>Also, I clearly stated where I got the information: nobelprize.org</p>
<p>Graduates earning a prize is very different from affiliated faculty that won the prize, no?</p>
<p>The quality of faculty and teaching is only one element, and, in my opinion, not the most important one. (There are really lousy teachers at Ivies, and excellent ones at “lesser” schools.) The biggest difference, in my opinion, is in the student body. If the other students in your classes are all top, accomplished students who ask good questions, engage in good, informed discussions, and move at an advanced pace, that is a huge benefit.</p>
<p>If you are a self starter it does not matter where you go to school in order to get an education. If you want to make the Bucks it’s another matter…
So the quality of faculty and teaching only is important if getting educated is your top priority.</p>
<p>Ok to address a few points…</p>
<p>Racin – most post-grad institutions factor college gpa heavily into admissions. If there weren’t some degree of grade inflation, an “average” student at Yale would graduate with a 2.0 – essentially screwing over his/her chances at grad school. If that student had gone to most other schools, he/she could have graduated with close to a 4.0. It would be absurd to punish the “average of the best” for not graduating summa cum laude.</p>
<p>Asa – the number of Nobel laureates in a school doesn’t mean anything with regard to education. First of all, just because someone won a Nobel prize doesn’t mean that he/she is a good teacher. I’d rather have a non-Nobel physics professor who is amazing at teaching, than a Nobel laureate who can’t explain his ideas. Also, if these Nobel laureates aren’t accessible to most students, they’re not going to contribute as much to undergraduate education. I have two of my professors’ phone numbers in my cell phone contacts, and several of my classes are very small, taught by amazing (albeit non-Nobel winning) professors. I would choose a small physics seminar taught by a less famous professor any day over a huge lecture taught by a Nobel winner.</p>
<p>also, Cal is comparable to many of the Ivies. It’s not common, lol. </p>
<p>And while SOME ivies have a lot of TAs, as a freshman at one Ivy, I have 2/4 classes this semester with 15 or fewer people, taught by full professors. This is actually really common, even for freshmen. Only intro classes are large and have TAs. After you start delving into your major, most of your classes are seminars with no TAs whatsoever!! I know Dartmouth and Princeton are also well-known for having very accessible professors and small classes.</p>
<p>Mocha,</p>
<p>“If that student had gone to most other schools, he/she could have graduated with close to a 4.0.” Not always the case especially if the student was accepted for racial diversity. I know a kid that was accepted to Stanford because he was Hispanic. He ended up with a 2.0. He would have got a 2.85 at Texas Tech. At any other school he would have got expelled. Stanford kept him around so he would not hurt its graduation rate. He’s still looking for a job a year after graduation.</p>
<p>Hunt, in theory, your point is well taken. But in reality, discussion is only a tiny part of a college education. The bulk of a college education is based on individual effort. The sheer amount students have to learn requires a great deal of self-initiative. Sure, sharing thoughts with fellow 19-21 year olds is great, but it should not be blown out of proportion. I would hope the thoughts of professors would be as valuable, and that both would take a back seatr to forming one’s own observations through actual study.</p>
<p>^ Yes, and you’ll have much more meaningful conversation with a student that scored 100 points higher on an SAT…:rolleyes:</p>
<p>Discussion is more important in humanities and social science courses. The larger lecture courses are more of the introductory science, math and econ variety, where the curriculum is more standard and based on fact…there is less need for discussion and debate.</p>
<p>“I know a kid that was accepted to Stanford because he was Hispanic. He ended up with a 2.0. He would have got a 2.85 at Texas Tech.”</p>
<p>You know this down to the second decimal point? Please share your crystal ball with the rest of us.</p>
<p>His twin brother went to Tech and ended up with a 2.85.</p>