<p>“Hunt, in theory, your point is well taken. But in reality, discussion is only a tiny part of a college education. The bulk of a college education is based on individual effort. The sheer amount students have to learn requires a great deal of self-initiative. Sure, sharing thoughts with fellow 19-21 year olds is great, but it should not be blown out of proportion. I would hope the thoughts of professors would be as valuable, and that both would take a back seatr to forming one’s own observations through actual study.”</p>
<p>I don’t agree with you, especially if you are a humanities major. Discussion with other students, both in and out of class, is a huge factor in a college education, and in the college experience overall. There is going to be a qualitative difference in this factor between a school in which all the students are high achievers, and one in which only a relativele few are high achievers. If by “actual study” you mean, for example, actually reading Milton’s Paradise Lost, it’s true that you’ll read it both at a top school and a “common” one, but it makes a big difference when the rest of the class understands the allusions in the poem and can follow the professor’s deep analysis, or when only a few can do so. It’s like the difference between being a great soccer player on a rec team with so-so players, or being on a travel team with a bunch of other great players.</p>
<p>honestly, these days, name means more than the quality of education. It was in the old days where the quality difference between the education in Ivy League vs “common” universities was clearly apparent; nowadays, pretty much all top 50 schools (public or private) offer same quality of education. OK sure the publics may have more students so you might get less individual attention from the professor (which is probably THE biggest disadvantage) but in terms of materials you learn and the quality of the professor you learn from, the difference will most probably be negligible.</p>
<p>Compare it as clothing manufacturer a century ago. In the old days, you could clearly see the difference between the quality of clothings you buy from a big brand vs some no-name random clothing shop in the street. These days, all material used for clothes are pretty much on par whether you buy one from Armani or down in the street, yet the price difference is astronomical only because of one difference: one has “Armani” branded and other doesn’t. I’m sure the extra money you pay for the Ivy school carries the same reason. And the funny thing is, employers (or anyone) care more about which school you graduated from than caring about what type of education you got, thus the name plays huge role.</p>
<p>^ dhl3, please compare fabric quality and feel in an Armani suit compared to a Calvin Klein suit, or some lesser brand, and repost. There is a difference to the discriminating connoisseur…;)</p>
<p>I went to an undergrad school that was known for not having much grade inflation, especially in its engineering programs. Here at Caltech I have, by far, the lowest undergrad GPA of any of my friends here. I’m quite sure the admissions committee was well aware of the relative difficulty of getting over a 3.5 at my school compared to many others.</p>
<p>If you’re going to go to a hard school, it only seems fair that you’ll be graded against your peers.</p>
<p>We aren’t talking about the difference in qualities between Ivies and common universities in regards to faculty. But, still, your argument doesn’t make any sense at all. Berkeley is arguably top 5 research universities in the world, thus attracting top notch faculties who are reknowned for their impressive careers in research. Therefore, it is no wonder that Berkeley has many famous profs. This doesn’t have anything to do with your argument that Berkeley is “common” compared to a school like Yale bc it has a lower selectivity. Berkeley, whether more selective or not compared to Yale, still attracts top profs ONLY bc it is a top notch research university. Berkeley, in this regard, would actually have more famous profs than many of the ivies, incluing Brown, Dartmouth, and some others who aren’t research-driven universities like Cal. So, Berkeley STUDENTS may be common campared to Yale students, but Berkeley FACULTY could be even more superior to many of the ivies’ FACULTY.</p>
<p>I don’t buy your argument that if there wasn’t grade inflation at Yale, average students at Yale wouldn’t have a chance at grad school. If the average Yale student graduated with a 2.0 GPA, the average grad school would most likely know that and take it into account when evaluating applications from Yale grads.</p>
<p>Hunt, I am sure you would agree that education is not the same for all individuals. Some definitely learn more from others. Some are better at figuring things out for themselves. Obviously, a handful of majors, like Philosophy, History, English etc…, leave a great deal more room for conversation than most majors. However, the majority of majors, like Engineering, all of the Sciences etc… do not really require much dialogue.</p>
<p>This said, I definitely agree that you want intellectually stimulating peers. However, those can be found at the vast majority of good universities.</p>
<p>well, Berkeley is no common university by any forms of measure, especially when we are talking about the quality of their faculty. Like I said before, Berkeley’s faculty is world class. Also, many of Berkeley’s undergraduate programs, especially business and engineering, are usually ranked top 5 in the nation. Berkeley’s grad school programs are also top notch with most of their programs ranked within top 5. Talking about the undergrad selectivity, Berkeley’s admit rate last year was 23% and the avergage SAT was around 2000 for admitted students. Their selectivity matches up to many of the elite private universities like Northwestern, WashU, and Georgetown. You call Berkeley “common”? It is rather closer to being “elite”. By “common”, most people would think schools like Indiana U, Purdue U, UTexas, and Ohio State.</p>
<p>“This said, I definitely agree that you want intellectually stimulating peers. However, those can be found at the vast majority of good universities.”</p>
<p>I don’t want to overstate this, and I don’t want to run down any universities, but I would point out that if you go to a school where the typical student is a stimulating peer, you don’t have to go looking for them. Your roommates, hallmates, classmates in intro classes, fellow club members, etc., will all be interesting people, and your overall experience will be enhanced. For many people, it is this factor they remember years later after college, even more than the teachers and classes.</p>
<p>“I don’t want to overstate this, and I don’t want to run down any universities, but I would point out that if you go to a school where the typical student is a stimulating peer, you don’t have to go looking for them. Your roommates, hallmates, classmates in intro classes, fellow club members, etc., will all be interesting people, and your overall experience will be enhanced.”</p>
<p>I agree Hunt. But that’s a very “common” characteristic among the majority of students attending the top 50 colleges and universities.</p>
<p>There are studies about twins separated at birth that showed them getting the same grades no matter what college they went to. One case in particular had one twin at an Ivy getting same grades as on in a “common”.</p>
<p>I would like to echo what others have said about the environment of the school being perhaps even more important than the profs. Certainly there are fabulous teachers at many, many schools. They get jobs where they can! And there are lousy teachers at top notch schools, no doubt at all. But the environment at top schools has got to be different from other schools. It can be very intense, to be sure, but it is guaranteed to be DIFFERENT from a huge university where there is less competition and fewer extremely bright students. With the top schools able to pick ~10%-15% or less from a huge applicant pool, they will pick (mostly) very bright kids, great athletes, talented artists, internationals, etc. I am sure this is controversial, but so be it.</p>
<p>“There are studies about twins separated at birth that showed them getting the same grades no matter what college they went to. One case in particular had one twin at an Ivy getting same grades as on in a “common”.”</p>
<p>I’m pretty sure you were being sarcasitc, but if you weren’t, could you post these studies which you are referring to?</p>
<p>VivaKC, I know two twins where one brother is considerably smarter than the other. Your “studies” can’t possibly confirm that all twins – or even most twins for that matter – are identical in terms of intelligence. There is no way you can make any kind of inference for the entire population of twins based on a few studies. </p>
<p>If there is some statistically significant evidence you’d like to share, I want to see some p-values. Otherwise, your point has little value.</p>
<p>The point, which you so kindly helped to point out, is that Berkeley is much less “elite” than Yale, but exceeds Yale in many aspects.</p>
<p>AND even IF we averted our eyes from Berkeley, shall we compare Yale to the likes of Michigan, Wisconsin, UCLA, UVA, or UNC? Once again, less “elite” schools that have things that Yale doesn’t (and can’t) offer.</p>