<p>Bill Gates came to Wisconsin and 'taught" an undergrad class as well as doing a larger Q and A session later. Many alum CEO’s stop in and do a class from time to time. </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.news.wisc.edu/11679.html[/url]”>http://www.news.wisc.edu/11679.html</a></p>
<p><a href=“http://www.bus.wisc.edu/oros/[/url]”>http://www.bus.wisc.edu/oros/</a></p>
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<p>Yes, it is. But this also suggests that hundreds of HYP seniors and grads feel confident in their chance of being admitted to Stanford and therefore apply. Confident, not sure. There is a process of self-selection at work. Binghamton may have only one or two grads apply to Stanford because the rest did want to take the risk of rejection.</p>
<p>Lets face facts–you take the top students in the country you can hand select and do no harm and many of them will be ready to apply to Yale Law or whatever. You take the same kids and put them at Above Average Tech and all of a sudden 200 kids from AA will be going to Yale Law or whatever. Was it really going to harvard that made them or were they already programmed for success? A former dean at harvard, I believe, said the latter.</p>
<p>marite: The reality is that Binghamton grads do not have fear of rejection.
And, believe it or not, it’s not only Ivy League students who are confident…really. There are simply very few who aspire to go to Stanford Law School. There are not many “Harvard types” at Binghamton, so it makes sense that few want to go to a law school like Harvard or Stanford.</p>
<p>Yet, the “Harvard types” (maybe the ones who were accepted at Ivy’s but chose to go to Binghamton) at Binghamton go on to do the same types of things after graduation as the “Harvard types” who attend Harvard.</p>
<p>Remember, it’s the qualities of the person, not where they went to college.</p>
<p>The Ivy’s don’t have a corner on the “intelligent student” market. There are “Harvard types” at hundreds of colleges througout the U.S.</p>
<p>Remember, a relatively small number of those accepted at Harvard actually choose to enroll, for a variety of reasons.</p>
<p>hmm
approx 80% of the kids admitted to Harvard attend. that’s huge, really…
did you mean that a relatively small number of those who apply are accepted? now in that we are in accord ;)</p>
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<p>Harvard’s yield rate is 80 percent. That is, from among 20,000 or so applicants, it will admit 2,000 and still be assured of filling its freshman class of 1,600. </p>
<p>Harvard is also very strongly preferred by students admitted to more than one college. </p>
<p><a href=“http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf[/url]”>http://post.economics.harvard.edu/faculty/hoxby/papers/revealedprefranking.pdf</a> </p>
<p>Just some facts about how students behave in each year’s admission cycle.</p>
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<p>The above is from my post #11. I’ve never ever claimed that Ivies have the corner on the intelligent students market. Nor have I ever claimed that the Ivies have the corner on great profs and great classes. So please don’t use me as your straw woman.</p>
<p>But this line of argument actually leads to an interesting conclusion, especially in light of my belief that students learn as much from one another as from attending classes. If the Ivies are good at attracting top students and producing top grads by essentially doing them no harm in the course of four years, this sounds like an argument for sending one’s kids to Ivies: the presence of other top students.</p>
<p>Oh, and what do you mean by Harvard type? Is there a type? That’s news to me. And I’ve been around there for over 40 years now. Or is it code for top students?</p>
<p>Well, of course personal qualities are important. But in a competitive (world/job market/grad school pool), I think it’s useful to have the stellar personal work ethic and drive plus the elite school opportunities. Might as well have all the advantages one can, right?</p>
<p>I mean, I think it’s foolish to say that attending Elite College X is the most important thing in the world, and that it will set out an immutable path to a perfect future. But I think it’s equally foolish to say that it doesn’t have any effect whatsoever on a student’s future.</p>
<p>I should also note that I dislike the title of this thread intensely. It’s an abuse of the term Ivy League.</p>
<p>What is meant by worth? Expensive? In that case, the most expensive school is GWU–not considered by HYPSM as a “peer institution” by any stretch of the imagination. A few years ago, the honor of being the most expensive college went to Sarah Lawrence College. Ditto re: “peer institution.” There are lots of colleges that are just as expensive as HYPSM.
If the Ivies are worthless, what does this make GWU, Sarah Lawrence, et al?</p>
<p>Do Ivies stand for excellence? In that case, they’re not worthless, are they?</p>
<p>Do they stand for hyper-selective? Some are less selective than some non-Ivies. It was I who mentioned that the nursing program at the Middlesex Community College has an admit rate lower than that of Harvard College.</p>
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<p>This is my main reason to be curious about Ivy-peer colleges. I know what it’s like to study at a state university, and I know one can find great professors, enormous libraries (these days with extensive subscriptions to for-fee online services), active social life, and a fair number of really smart students. But it is apparent that there is likely to be an even greater critical mass of smart students to learn from at Ivy-peer colleges. Moreover, those students probably come from a greater variety of places, and I learned from living abroad the importance of meeting people from lots of places. That’s educational in itself, irrespective of courses and professors available, and I think that is enough of an Ivy advantage to warrant many young people in my state making applications to out-of-state private colleges, despite the good quality of the local state university and its students. </p>
<p>Following up on what Mollie said, in many job-seeking situations, the most rapid way to demonstrate desirable personal qualities is to show that one has been admitted to an undergraduate college that looks for those qualities. That’s not a “worthless” thing to do.</p>
<p>marite: Response to posts #47 and #49…</p>
<p>First of all, I’m wondering why so defensive???</p>
<p>(1) As far as the title of this thread, it refers to the article I provided a link to in the initial post. The title of the article is, “The Worthless Ivy League?”.
That being said, there is no need to find the title of the thread offensive.
This is a forum in which to discuss views on various topics related to college.
In this thread, people have an opportunity to express their views regarding the content of the article I provided a link to in the initial post of this thread.</p>
<p>If you notice in my first post, I was very clear that I DON’T agree that the Ivy League is worthless. I did express my opinion that it is overrated, and I’ll stand firmly behind my opinion. I also respect your opinion.</p>
<p>(2) When I used the term, “Harvard type” yes, I meant students who are intelligent, well-rounded, had high GPA’s, high SAT’s, etc. So, if you’re a supporter of Harvard, I guess you can take my term, “Harvard type” as a compliment.</p>
<p>(3) In terms of your comment, “students learn as much from one another as they do from attending classes”, sure that’s an argument for sending your kids to one of the Ivy’s. But, FYI…the same type of student-to-student learning is taking place all over the country…Yes, even at that tiny liberal arts college in the cornfields of Iowa and even at “Good Ol’ State U.” So, I guess one could argue that a parent could send their children to any number of colleges across the country.</p>
<p>Truly not trying to be antagonistic, but…If you’ve been around Harvard for 40 years, you may be looking at things too narrowly.</p>
<p>Old but Wise:</p>
<p>Gee, saying that I dislike the title of this thread intensely is the same as finding it offensive???
“There is no need” Let me be the judge of what I want to like or dislike, or even find offensive.
I never said that great students cannot be found outside of HYPSM, have I? Where? All I said was that the logic employed “Take excellent students going in, produce excellent grads going out”" leads one to conclude that what makes HYPSM excellent is the quality of the students. Not a bad reason for sending kids to HYPSM. But while that is the conclusion I am led to draw, that was not an argument advanced by me.<br>
Thanks for the clarification about “Harvard type.” Does that mean that the overwhleming majority of students at Binghamton, who are not Harvard type, although they do not fear rejection (as per your earlier post), are not “intelligent, well rounded, had high GPAs, high SATs?” Wow! </p>
<p>By the way, I have been around Harvard for 40 years, but I have also been to many other schools on both coasts and in the middle. But I have to admit that I have never been to Binghamton. I can only hope that the picture you are drawing is inaccurate and that there are lots more “Harvard type” students than the 2 or 3 who apply to Stanford Law School.</p>
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<p>Yeah, I noticed that. It looks to me like a clear use of rhetorical device of praeteritio: asserting something by pretending to deny it. It’s clear from this thread that you have an axe to grind when it comes to high-end schools.</p>
<p>I assume that “high-end” and Ivy are one in the same to you.</p>
<p>I didn’t hide my feelings that I sincerely believe that Ivy’s are overrated. To you, that apparently means that I have an axe to grind against “high-end” colleges.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, it’s starting to sound as though there’s something wrong with saying that the Ivy’s are no better (or no worse) than many other schools. If I say that Union College is as good as Harvard, does that mean that I’ve got an axe to grid with the “high-end” (whatever that means) schools?</p>
<p>High end?</p>
<p>Union College Cost of Attendance, 2006-1007: $44,043.
Harvard College Cost of Attendance, 2006-1007: $43,665.</p>
<p>I love this argument.</p>
<p>I’ve noticed that many professors who pursued advanced degrees at elite schools received their undergraduate degrees from overseas schools.</p>
<p>Harvard doubtless has much better financial aid for students from a broader range of incomes than does Union.</p>
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<p>Welcome to CC. You’ll fit right in with a certain group of members. Ivy-bashing and its popular subspecies, Harvard-hating, are both common pastimes here.</p>
<p>To me, it appears as though Ivy worshippers outnumber Ivy-bashers about 500-1 on CC. Just look at the posts!</p>
<p>Also, I’d appreciate it if you’d review all of my posts and find where I said anything that indicates that I’m a Harvard-hater. I guess that if one says that the Ivy’s are no better or no worse than any other school, then that constitutes a Harvard-hater.</p>
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<p>No better than ANY other school? Really and truly?</p>
<p>And if Ivies are overrated, where does that leave Union College which turns out to be more expensive than Harvard, and likely, as Tokenadult suggests, to have less financial aid available?</p>