<p>The plural of “Ivy” is “Ivies,” isn’t it? </p>
<p><a href=“http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League[/url]”>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ivy_League</a> </p>
<p><a href=“http://www.answers.com/topic/ivy[/url]”>http://www.answers.com/topic/ivy</a></p>
<p>Just as anything else Americans are involved in - college has turned into a consumerist, hyper-competitive, “who’s is bigger” contest instead of focusing on if it is even the best school for the student. Ivy is not like signing a contract for a happy life, there are plenty of things to prove that it is the end-all be-all of being successful.</p>
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<p>I’ll assume that there is a dropped “not” in that sentence.:)</p>
<p>I’ll repeat my support for Garland’s post #10. And I’ll repeat that these qualities are not exclusive to Ivies. (Post #11). </p>
<p>In fact, my S was not interested in “Ivies.” Some Ivies just did not fit his needs. His criteria were that they had to be excellent in the areas he was interested in, that they had graduate programs in said areas, and that they not be too large. This left out many wonderful LACs as well as some excellent but too-large state universities–some of which would have been nearly as expensive as HYPSM anyway of OOS students. And this pointed to a fairly narrow range of possibilities, some Ivies, some non-Ivies.
Will he be happy or successful? Lots will depend on him rather than on the education he received or the particular school he attended. His notion of success, by the way, is not predicated on making lots of money.</p>
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<p>If Ivies are no better or no worse than any other school, then this implies that all schools are exactly alike –> all of them no better or no worse than all the others. </p>
<p>Do you really believe that every one of the 3000+ colleges in the US are no better and no worse than Harvard? It would be truly amazing if that many schools could all arrive at the same degree of quality and merit at the same time and stay there. Simply amazing.</p>
<p>I think it’s more likely that you are given to making far-fetched assertions (not to mention flat-out wrong assertions such as “…a relatively small number of those accepted at Harvard actually choose to enroll…”) to back-up your anti-Ivy agenda.</p>
<p>(1) I don’t even know how cost entered into this discussion. Obviously, cost has nothing to do with quality of education. Cooper Union is free, and is no better or no worse that any of the Ivies.</p>
<p>(2) Like I said, I don’t think the Ivies are any better or any worse than many other colleges around the country. For instance: Can you give me an example of one college that Harvard is better than. Then, give me an example of one college Harvard is worse than.</p>
<p>correct assumption on the not - sorry.</p>
<p>As more and more students become more competitive candidates - the Ivies cannot support all of them - the reason for many great schools with students just as capable as those at the Ivies. Honestly, this is just brand-name obsession.</p>
<p>CKmed:</p>
<p>I agree, and have argued along these lines before. There is a specific reason that S applied to Harvard and not to unspecified Ivies. The same reason that Harvey Mudd, Chicago and Duke were on his list but not Dartmouth.
S1, not constrained by the same considerations, was not interested in Ivies and preferred LACs. He found out that some of the best features of LACs–small classes taught entirely by profs–can work to a student’s disadvantage if this means being shut out of certain classes. But he did get an excellent education.</p>
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<p>Arizona State University. I say this not to disparage Arizona State, where I bought the T-shirt with the “Truth, Knowledge, a Great Tan” slogan that I wore proudly to law school on occasion, but to praise Harvard. </p>
<p>There are examples much more conspicuous than the one I have given.</p>
<p>ckmed: Thank you…you “get it.”</p>
<p>Unfortunately we are living in a society full of people who have “brand-name obsession” when it comes to colleges. </p>
<p>The saddest part of all is that this obsession is being passed down to our adolescents as though it is the truth. And, how many adolescents are falling victim to depression, anxiety attacks, low self-esteem, hair falling out, eating disorders, etc. as a result of this obsession that is passed down from adults to our young people. For those of you who deny that “Ivy Obsession” is causing these problems in many (not all!) of our adolescents, don’t even bother to challenge me on that point because it is indisputable.</p>
<p>How many kids never sit down and eat supper with their parents because they feel that they are “overscheduled” in order to pad their resumes so they’ll be perfect Ivy candidates?</p>
<p>How many kids are scared to bring their report cards home to their parents because the got all A’s and one B? In their parents eyes…not good enough. Again, don’t even try to dispute it…it’s fact. If you don’t believe me, simply ask any suburban high school student if this stuff is happening to either themself or someone they know.</p>
<p>All you have to do is look on several of these sites to see what I’m talking about: A ninth grader asking questions about the best route to a Harvard MBA. </p>
<p>Or, the parent who says, “My son has wanted to go to Princeton since he was 12 years old.”</p>
<p>How sad is that???</p>
<p>Old But Wise:</p>
<p>There’s plenty of Ivy-obsession among both parents and students, and it is indeed sad. But that is a very different discussion from saying that Ivies are either worthless, or not any better than ANY other school, or even over-rated.</p>
<p>mariete: I must confess…I really am not an Ivy-hater, by any stretch of the imagination. I have tremendous respect for the Ivies because they are wonderful schools. I was just playing “devil’s advocate” in an effort to get some lively debate going. And it worked.</p>
<p>By the way, you made some great points and I certainly respect what you had to say. And yes, I even agree with some of your points!</p>
<p>I still believe that it is one’s personal attributes, not the school, that plays the largest role in one’s professional success. Many of those with the impressive attributes do indeed attend Ivy’s.</p>
<p>On a serious note: I have a tremendous concern with the “brand-name” obsession we are seeing in too many of our wonderful young children. I desperately want our young people to know that there are many routes to a wonderful education, and more importantly, a wonderful and happy life, and it’s not the end of the world if they don’t get into an Ivy.</p>
<p>I agree that brand obsession is a bad thing. But neither would I say that they Ivies are worthless. It’s all about fit. Why, Harvard and Yale are almost as good as Smith and Wellesley and Brown’s not bad at all though Dartmouth doesn’t even signify.</p>
<p>How long is a piece of string?
Don’t you think if were are going to settle this thing there needs to be a playoff? </p>
<p>For most people the best college is the one they are trying to get onto, or the one they went to or perception. I would be careful to try to extrapolate too much though from the data that are presented in various lists. If one person chooses a Honda and another a Lexus one can’t infer too much about the quality of the driver. Good people choose brands for different reasons.<br>
It is amazing how good a person can become in basketball without wearing “Air Jordan” shoes or not having the fanciest gym in which to play. Trying to make absolute differentiations on the “top” 50 or more colleges as to how they will or will not affect outcomes for good students is fun but really has no bearing about what a particular John Doe Jr. should do in his specific college decision. It is what is best for him and cetainly a specific rank on a magazine page is not always all that matters.</p>
<p>I remember a certain student I had a number a few years back. Accepted into all HYPSD plus Smith. The student received a fair amount of grief from Ivy League peers for taking the Emory Scholar offer. Student ended up making money in school that allowed for summers studies abroad etc. Said person ended up, with a peer who went to an Ivy, at a certain top law school. I cannot see where the undergrad choice made any difference. But many of the Ivy folks would think spending 40k per year versus lowering onself to take scholarship at a non-Ivy school is the only honorable thing to do. Hmm…different strokes.</p>
<p>I find the Ivy obsession difficult to ignore, but for my son, who wants small classes led by professors and filled with intellectually curious students who are not preppy or sports-crazy, I feel that schools like Carleton, Grinnell, Macalester, Reed and Pomona are better fits than HYP or ASW. So for him they are better schools.</p>
<p>The vast majority of my classes were small, lead by senior PhDs and filled with active learners. Smallest courses were 7 students and largest was intro accounting which I took for personal interest. To state that IVY courses are large would be to speak from not knowing facts.</p>
<p>In my experience, generic products are inferior to brand names, be it toilet paper, aspirin, condoms, seltzer water,… and I like attractive labels. And you can judge a book by its cover.</p>
<p>I and most other people who have reported on the Krueger and Dale study have found the results compelling. The reason being the massive Andrew Mellon Foundation data base at their disposal. Replicating their work sans this db would be difficult if not impossible.</p>
<p>But the OP’s cited article does stretch things a bit. None of the colleges considered in the studey could be considered Podunk in the common usage of the derisive term. That is unless one considers the like of PSU and Denison as Podunk U.</p>
<p>In believing that the hyper-selective colleges are the holy grail of future success, people invariably trot out facts of law/medical school admissions, I Banking interviews and the like. But why shouldn’t this be the case when upwards of 75% of the graduates are brilliant, incredibly conscientious or both. And for many this is also the reason they wish to attend such lofty institutions, a very valid reason IMHO.</p>
<p>BUT I believe it is a fallacy to think that post graduate life will travel a significanty lower trajectory if that brilliant and/or uber-conscientious student chooses to remain closer to home and attend a college like Case or Kenyon. It will probably be a different trajectory but that would probably be the case if the student decided to attend Stanford instead of HYP. And that is the conclusion of the K&D study, a conclusion that should almost be self-evident.</p>
<p>Well stated.
“And that my friends… is the rest of the story…good day!”</p>
<p>OBW–early on in this thread, I protested against the idea that the goal of college is for making the most money. It’s rather, I believe, for the intrinsic experience. I do think that experience varies from school to school. I said that I want my kids to be among students who value education for its own sake–however, at my D’s first college, she did not find that. Even in her Honors Program, she found no one interested in ideas, but rather grades and money. She transfered to a very “selective” LAC, and everything was different there. My S is, full disclosure, at an Ivy, where he’s had a similar academic experience to her second one. No one here is arguing that you can get that experience only at an Ivy (my D wasn’t at one), but to say it’s the same anywhere, I don’t agree. </p>
<p>I think you may have mischaracterized my original post; it was not to say that I was rejecting Ivy-type schools because I don’t care how much money they do or do not lead their graduates to make, but rather I was rejecting the idea of the Dale and Kreuger study, and especially that snarkily-headlined article in the OP, which assume that my kids went to the schools they went to over money and prestige.</p>
<p>My description of what I want for my kids, that I wrote when you asked me to, led them to these schools. Neither has had a perfect college experience (has anyone?) but both found the kind of academic rigor and engaged student peers that I hoped for, and that I think is not everywhere to the same degree.</p>
<p>That’s just our experience, of course.</p>
<p>And yet I have had students who attended those same Ivy schools and say similiar things such as !) There seem to be few kids who really care about learning for learning sake, 2) There are some spoiled rich kids who skip classes, 3) The rigor of the course work once they got in was not up to that seen in some lesser known schools and 4) Some of the biggest name profs were awful in the classroom. Sounds a lot like a lot of other colleges to me. So it depends on the student. Also the perception depends so much upon who you are around, a particular experience, or an expectation.</p>