Is the US becoming hostile to science?

Parent Cafe
1

<p>As ( I) pointed out on another thread- tech companies cannot find enough workers in US.
Districts have minimum science/requirements to graduate- math curriculum is inferior to that used in other countries- districts are under pressure to teach religion as science… add that to the teachers who often aren’t comfortable at least in the elementary level teaching math/science, and we have students who are not ready to compete in the global marketplace let alone major in math/science in college.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9853293/[/url]”>http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/9853293/&lt;/a&gt;

</p>

2

<p>I think any connection between the two is tenuous at best. Math would not be impacted at all. Maybe people don’t like science careers becasue they suck–poor pay, long hours, few perks, etc.</p>

3

<p>which jobs would those be?</p>

<p>Both my daughters are planning science careers- very exciting fields- good expectations of income- even without a grad degree the companies my daughter interviewed said it was pretty easy to find work, and that has been true for her friends in science fields.</p>

<p>For students that have had poor teachers in science and math in elementary school, they are going to be turned off by it in middle and high school unless they are blessed with a fantastic teacher.
For many high schools in the area, you cant even take anything besides “integrated science” if you haven’t had the appropriate math class, and since math isn’t taught well- that cuts out a lot of students ( except for exchange students) out of the sciences altoghter</p>

<p>

</p>

4

<p>Its even worse than I realized</p>

<p><a href=“http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/feature/advice/diversity2000.shl[/url]”>http://sciencecareers.sciencemag.org/feature/advice/diversity2000.shl&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>The United States is experiencing the worst shortage of trained scientists in memory. According to the Department of Energy (DOE), one in every two new technology jobs that opens up goes unfilled because of the shortage. So DOE and other government organizations have set up programs to encourage women, members of minority groups, disabled individuals, and others who have not traditionally pursued careers in science to do so now</p>

<p>Example from my own family- my brother received his electrical engineering degree from the university of colorado- colorado springs- it took him 15+ years but as soon as he finished- they hired him to teach in the engineering dept.
He transferred to another state to work for Bayer- they pay him 6 figures and he loves his job.
His nephew/son, also just graduated from college in Colorado- albeit @ Boulder and he will be starting at $60K as an aeronautical engineer- not bad for four years of college- especially considering it was instate and he had scholarships- he doesn’t have any loans to speak of</p>

<p>Next week biology students from my daughters former K-12 school will be going on a 10 trip to Hawaii. ( teachers too) field research in Hawaii in November? how can you beat that?
Science isnt boring- it is exciting and challenging …it can pay pretty well too :)</p>

5

<p>Even lawyers need to know math as they charge by the tenth of an hour and apparenlty they have figuered out how to have more than 10/10 hours!! I just think that lots of non science majors need math skills also.</p>

6

<p>as for pay- my 16 yr old nephew gets $11 an hour to play video games after school ( in Redmond but not at Microsoft)-
( isn’t that more than adult workers are making at Walmart?)</p>

7

<p>This is the worst form of scapegoating and religious bigotry - one that one would expect to see from some completely out of the mainstream source. The fact that it can be presented in a mainstream source such as MSNBC is unfortunately indicative of where the mainstream media has gone. </p>

<p>I wonder if they even paused to think about the illogic of what they wrote. Can you imagine a hiring manager at Microsoft telling a potential recruit, “Sorry kid, but that 20 minutes that you spent back in middle school discussing the potential problems with evolution has set you so far back that you just aren’t competitve with the kids from India and China.” Give me a break! Even if this could somehow be linked, the kids who may have been exposed to this are a) the very, very tiny minority and b) still in the pipeline and haven’t even entered the job market yet. But that doesn’t seem to stop the media from blaming the Christians.</p>

<p>If there is a problem with our teaching of science and math, why not address it head on instead of blaming “those far right radical Christians”. However, this is a good article to show why the Christian right may indeed feel threatened and why they feel the need to get more involved with politics and the court system before the blame game gets out of hand. Didn’t something like that happen in Germany about 60 or 70 years ago?</p>

8

<p>so are you agreeing that there is a problem with the way that science and math are taught in public schools? Or not?
WHat about the US not being able to produce enough capable workers ?
Is that a problem?</p>

9

<p>In a related vein, IBM appears to be concerned enough about the shortage of students pursuing math and science careers that they believe it is critical to train more math and science teachers. They are now piloting a program called “Transition to Teaching”, which is designed to transition employees with scientific and mathematical backgrounds into teaching careers as they retire from IBM careers.</p>

10

<p>Maybe the Wal-mart workers need to bone up on their video games but I doubt many are proficient enough to be hired as a game tester or whatever. I certainly would not be so I would not bother with that job. Believe it or not jobs are generally paid according to what it takes to find someone adequate to do them. Pretty much anyone with average intelligence can be plugged into stocking shelves and even running a register. I’ve done those jobs and it’s not rocket science.</p>

<p>If those science jobs are so great word will get out. Enrollment in CS boomed while demand was high–now it has declined as many real stories of software engineers being fired at 35-50 and not being able to find new jobs got around. People are not stupid.</p>

11

<p>FF’s speculation of the Religious Right feeling impelled to get involved with the courts and politics and drawing a comparison to events in Germany 60-70 years ago certainly makes a point but I’m not sure it’s the one he intended.</p>

<p>Certainly, fundamentalists do not understand concepts in scientific terms, such as what is meant by “theory,” short circuit analysis of cause and effect with non-testable assertions, and have little patience when fact or logic challenges the tenets of their faith. Other than that, all is hunky-dory.</p>

<p>There is nothing in my world view that indicates that faith and science can not co-exist. But faith that can not stand the illumination of the rational is just ignorance, now matter how you slice it.</p>

12

<p>It is nothing short of bizarre to insinuate that the inadequate teaching of math and science is the result of religious people believing in God, i.e. a designer.</p>

<p>I’m sure it is just crippling to math teachers and text books: how to deal with ID in calculus? In math? Please.</p>

<p>As to science, part of the problem (aside from bad teaching and administrating) may be the lack of enthusiasm in students. I’m not at all convinced that dealing with a passing mention of design in a science class would make teenagers less enthusiastic about science (math being absurd on the face of it). </p>

<p>Perhaps the inability of science teachers and textbooks to handle some of the BIG ideas of many of their students is a problem in itself–most children are raised to believe in a creator (Hindus, Muslims, Jews etc.), but when they get into a science class they are supposed to act like they were not raised this way, that they don’t believe it, that it doesn’t matter. “Don’t ask, don’t tell”: Talk about killing curiosity!</p>

13

<p>A few years ago, I was all set to blame Microsoft because they were among the leaders in lobbying the federal government to expand the work visa program so that technology companies could hire thousands of computer science graduates from abroad, who will accept less pay than a similarly educated American. Since that time I have seen the Bill and Melinda Gates Foundation provide grants to U.S. elementary and secondary schools so as to improve science education. I hope the U.S. government and more philanthopists will do likewise. And soon.</p>

14

<p>

</p>

<p>Huh?? If Christians weren’t so against things like stem cell research LOUDLY and interfere with their political power, nobody would even talk about them, let alone blaming them. You seem to get the cause and effect mixed up. FYI: I am 100% behind separation of church and politics.</p>

15

<p>Sometimes Gates speaks with forked tongue. I think they find the foreign workers both more pliable and harder working. Who wants to be forced to keep up with the guy with no life outside work?( I know–gross stereotype but…)</p>

16

<p>I’m sure it is just crippling to math teachers and text books: how to deal with ID in calculus? In math? Please.</p>

<p>I feel the same way about dealing with ID in biology- you want a philosophy class? Take philosophy not science.</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4227989[/url]”>Fed to Raise Interest Rates : NPR;

<p>according to TIMMS- </p>

<p>Achievement Results of 12th Graders from 21 Countries
Mathematics
Above average<br>
Netherlands
Sweden
Denmark
Switzerland
Iceland
Norway<br>
Close to average
Italy
Russia
Lithuania<br>
Czech Republic
United States<br>
Below
average **
Cyprus
South Africa
** Advanced math
above average
France
Russia
Switzerland
Denmark
Cyprus
Lihuania
Close to average
Australia
Greece
Sweden
Canada
Slovenia
Italy
below average
Czech republic
Germany
United states
Austria
*Physics

  • above average*</p>

<p>

</p>

<p>I am concerned that we have buried our heads in the ground- when even our brightest students are out performed from those elsewhere</p>

17

<p>Yeah, I guess you’re right…sounds like the work of right-wing Christians to me;)</p>

18

<p>In this interview yesterday <a href=“http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=4984885[/url]”>A Former President Warns of 'Endangered Values' : NPR;

<p>Jimmy Carter explains why he left the Southern Baptist church and why he thinks God and creationism/intelligent design should NOT be taught in science class. I’m sorry I can’t give quotes from a transcript.</p>

<p>Apparently he also addresses these issues in his new book. <a href=“http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743284577/qid=1131055478/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9722235-2436836?v=glance&s=books&n=507846[/url]”>http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0743284577/qid=1131055478/sr=8-1/ref=pd_bbs_1/002-9722235-2436836?v=glance&s=books&n=507846&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

19

<p>Geesh, I never thought I’d make a post agreeing, to any degree, with FF or woodwork, but here goes.</p>

<p>Emerald, some of the data you posted is interesting but misleading. Take post 16. The list you posted is meaningless because the groups taking the exams in the various countries cannot be directly compared. It’s like comparing the average AP scores of two states, one where the exam is paid for by the state and students are encouraged to take AP courses, versus another state where only the cream gets to take AP exams. Guess which will have a higher average score? Does it mean anything? No.</p>

<p>The earlier science mag quote is one of a long list, dating back to my college days, about the shortage of scientists or engineers. Over the years, I’ve known all too many scientists and engineers who could not find jobs. I put little faith in prognostications of groups who are clearly avocacy groups, with a vested interest in seeing increased support.</p>

<p>In fact, our labor markets work quite well, given the attendant lags. Take comp sci. Very popular field until the dot com bust. Makes sense. Aerospace engineering has had its ups and downs following defense spending. In the '60s, nuclear engineering was popular. Now…</p>

<p>So, why do we have the perception that science and engineering are not attractive to a lot of our kids? An article I read (think it was New Scientist) a few months ago pointed out that science is a tough career. You put in many years of training (6 years grad school, 3 or more years postdoc fellow) before you begin to gain any significant income. You are at an age where your bright, motivated peers (the ones who would have succeeded in science if they chose to) who went to law school are making partner, trading up to their second or third homes while you are struggling to make the down payment on a condo. </p>

<p>Science is tough work. It is also very meritocratic, so it is relatively more attractive to an immigrant who can compensate for language deficiencies and lack of family connections by doing good, hard work. Or kids don’t want to (indeed, don’t need to) compete with that. </p>

<p>Engineering? Interesting profession - one where a person’s upward mobility is rather limited, and one where grey hair and experience are not always viewed positively. Add to that the toughest undergrad program of any at the U, and we wonder why the kids shy away?</p>

20

<p>actually the lawyers I know are going back to school and becoming teachers because they want something with better hours and working conditions. ;)</p>

<p>Thats great that your schools are apparently able to produce kids who are ready for college level math and science
Our schools here are doing a terrible job- kids don’t learn times tables or long division- the process is more important than getting the correct answer-
<a href=“http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/programs.htm[/url]”>http://www.mathematicallycorrect.com/programs.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>Many schools don’t have science labs per se- they have a classroom with an overhead projector and some outdated textbooks :(</p>

<p><a href=“http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2005-08-08-schoollabs_x.htm[/url]”>http://www.usatoday.com/tech/science/2005-08-08-schoollabs_x.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;