<p>Emerald.</p>
<p>lol</p>
<p>My office building houses several major law firms and I don’t see many of them giving up the $500K a year lifestyle. They worry about hiring enough new ones to keep up with business.</p>
<p>As a middle school Algebra teacher, I am always on the look out for 13 and 14 year-old students who cannot multiply. It limits their ability to work with fractions, ratios, proportions and most algebraic equations beyond the most simple. When I work with them after school or on weekends most of these kids have no experience memorizing facts. Some parents resent the imposition of students being required to do homework. I have also argued (in the polite intellectual meaning) with principals about the importance of students to do independent home-work. </p>
<p>I encouraged both my own children and my students to get into a high school math track that will get them into calculus before they graduate. I don’t blame the Christian right for poor math skills of our students, and would suggest that my own kids have had superior educations in public schools compared to what I had. I remember when half of my classmates took “business math” in high school. Now every student is expected to pass Algebra and to take at least one other “advanced math class.” Comparing student scores of different states, nations and even schools can be misleading, especially if one group is more selective as to whom can take the test.</p>
<p>Emeraldkity, I know two lawyers who became teachers, one is already out of teaching and the other one is trying to become an administrator, both agree, the shallow respect for teachers and their inability to make decisions regarding their classrooms was a disappointing surprise. I spend two hours after school every day either tutoring, attending meetings or school activities. I alternate Saturdays, opening up my classroom to develop arithmetic skills and taking a math seminar (to keep from limiting my math to the 8th grade level.) My Saturday classes are open to brothers, sisters and cousins of my students, they all come voluntarily but I use food as a draw. I am also active in my union. Teaching did give me the flexibility to watch my kids grow up, but it certainly is more than an 8 to 2 job. Out of the past ten years, I have only had three summers that weren’t dominated by teaching summer school or taking college courses. Most of the teachers I know who do take summers off have Spouses that earn a decent living. To do this job right it takes a lot of time and commitment. </p>
<p>I wish your friends luck.</p>
<p>I just heard on the news while I was typing that 1700 teachers in California’s teachers in training programs will be disqualified from teaching under the no child left behind act. This is not good news considering the shortage.</p>
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<p>newmassdad,</p>
<p>If you are not familiar with the math curriculum in places like Singapore, you probably don’t know how lag behind the average curriculum US kids are exposed to.<br>
<a href=“http://www.b2baaatutoring.com/mat50topic.htm[/url]”>http://www.b2baaatutoring.com/mat50topic.htm</a> lists the topics the HKCEE (public exam taken by ALL 11th-graders in Hong Kong) math exam covers. These are the topics that EVERYONE, not “above-average” or “top” students, are expected to learn.
<a href=“http://www.b2baaatutoring.com/mat51exa.htm[/url]”>http://www.b2baaatutoring.com/mat51exa.htm</a> shows you some of the harder problems 9th graders (secondary 3 is equivalent to 9th-grade) can solve.
There’s an “Additional Math” that 30%-40% (much higher % than students taking APs) of the students take and by the end of 11th-grade, they would have covered topics like conics, math induction, vectors/trigonometry (3-dimensional), and differentiation/integration…etc.</p>
<p>Sam Lee:</p>
<p>There is no question that many math curricula are superior to the American curriculum. But newmassdad’s point about the lack of comparability between different cohorts of students holds. To give one example, in France, one has to pass the first part of the Baccalaureat at the end of 11th grade to move on to 12th grade. Routinely, at least 1/3 of 11th graders fail the first part. In the US, the majority of 11th graders move on to 12th grade. So to compare US 12th graders and French 12th graders is not appropriate. Same with 8th graders. There is an exam in France at the end of 5th grade that determines whether a student will move on or will be retained. Few American 5th graders are required to repeat 5th grade but it is not uncommon in France. So while the foreign curricula may be far tougher, TIMSS does not compare curricula. It compares different cohorts of students.</p>
<p>Yes, It is curious how we still manage to out innovate the rest of the world, have productivity growth that beats our competitors, and have schools that are the envy of the world.</p>
<p>Somehow this does not jive with calls of doom in our educational system.</p>
<p>Of course, we DO h</p>
<p>Yes, It is curious how we still manage to out innovate the rest of the world, have productivity growth that beats our competitors, and have schools that are the envy of the world.</p>
<p>Somehow this does not jive with calls of doom in our educational system.</p>
<p>Of course, we DO have terrible inequality in the US. The best of our education is THE best. The worst? Don’t know, but I have suspicions. Of course, this issue is rarely on the discussion list. I guess it is much easier to engage in broad bashings than to pinpoint the problem. </p>
<p>And, much as I do think there is a strong anti-intellectual, anti-scientific backlash growing in this country, somehow I think most of our kids are smart enough to rise above this. For example, in spite of the indoctrination most of us went through growing up, I bet most of us have evolved into critically thinking adults that make our own decisions. Our kids will do the same, creation science or not.</p>
<p>I realize that many of the parents and students on these boards- are doing well- still I worry about my kids
I didn’t go to great schools- I dropped out of high school, my husband graduated with a D average.
We wanted better for our kids so we sacrificed- a lot- so that they could attend private schools for as long as we could make it work-.</p>
<p>We aren’t an anomaly- Seattle is losing families as fast as they can build 3000 sq ft homes in the suburbs. Of major cities, we have more children than…San Franscisco. But in our working class- semi heavy industrial neighborhood for the 1st 15 years we lived here, we could count on one hand the people in the neighborhood who sent their kids to public school. No matter what you want to beleive, I think that says something about the percieved quality of the schools.</p>
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<p>newmassdad,</p>
<p>Let’s not forget the contributions of immigrated foreigners on scientific research/innovation especially these days. The “WE” really include them. Not everything is “home-grown”. The US was the first to recognize the importance of attracting and keeping foreign talents and has taken full advantage of it. </p>
<p>The survey was done fairly recently. The oldest group in the survey are now in college while those 4th graders are still in junior high now. It will take time to see if the US will still “out innovate the rest of the world, have productivity growth that beats its competitors…etc”. The issue is not whether the US had the edge in the past or still has the edge at the present moment. The issue is whether the US may lose the edge in the future given the youngest generation seems to lag behind in math/science eduation. </p>
<p>marite,
I never said his point doesn’t hold. But he also didn’t think kids here lag behind in math education; as an international who went to HS in another country and here, I am aware that just isn’t the case.</p>
<p>No. Newmassdad is not arguing about kids, nor is he arguing about international students. He is arguing about American education and innovation. Though I should let him speak for himself.</p>
<p>There is an interesting gap between k-12 and college education systems in the US and in many other countries. Arguably, the k-12 curriculum in many other countries is superior to that of the US (though this does not necessarily translate into better educated students–it depends on how many actually finish high school). But at college level, American education is superior. Let’s face it, if it were not, internationals would not be flocking to American universities, expensive as they are. The fact that math and science departments are filled with foreign students does not so much attest to the superiority of foreign students’ preparation in general as to the greater trend among American students to go into different and more lucrative fields. Let’s face it. A student who is good in math could become become an economics or applied math major, go into banking or become an actuary and be in great demand. Starting salary would be in the high 5 figures, the same as a full professor at many American colleges. A pure math Ph.D. has very limited employment prospects. One math prof posted on another forum that those prospects are actually nil. The same kind of calculus obtain in the sciences, with American students flocking to medicine rather than to academia.<br>
In other words, arguing from the significant presence of foreign students in graduate math and science departments that American math and science education is deficient is faulty logic.</p>
<p>This topic hits a little close to home for me right now. One of my closest friends from college works for a large computer consulting firm. She enjoys her job and is very math/science oriented. However, they were told last month that in the next year approximately 50% of their jobs would be relocating to India. She is scared to death that one of them will be hers. She said she felt like it was the college cliche from movies: Look to your right. Look to your left. One of you won’t be here next semester. I’m not sure if scenarios like this impact the career decisions that some are making these days. It may have nothing to do with it.</p>
<p>Marite, I think it’s important not to lose sight of the fact that only the American education system allows for any freedom of choice in education. In England, for example, a graduating senior is assigned to a college–if they go at all–based entirely on grades on a series of difficult tests. (Look at the grading system in the Harry Potter books!) In many other countries, the same is true. However, in the US, we welcome those from other countries, even if they didn’t score well on the tests, and sometimes even give them scholarships.</p>
<p>I don’t have much that is new to add to this discussion, but I’d have to say I agree with much that Marite and NewMassDad have said. I think that the American educational system is more forgiving of people who don’t fit a particular test-based cohort. If an American student develops an interest in school in 10th or 11th grade, there is still time to turn things around and focus on math or science. In many other systems, that option is not available because the student has been channeled into a different path, based on test scores.</p>
<p>I do see a couple of issues that make this a discussion worth having. Many kids who are talented in math or science will find that the free market system provides incentive to pursue patent law, medicine or investment banking. I believe I read something to the effect that the top recruits for some areas of the financial markets is math or physics grads. So there are students pursuing degrees in these fields who may choose to use their talents in other industries.</p>
<p>I also think that our culture makes it harder for kids in the elementary and secondary years to really pursue math (in particular) with the level of dedication which is required for excellence. We do focus more energy on extracurricular activities than other countries, and the availability of entertainment, particularly of the electronic form, is distracting. Most talents require at least 10 years of deliberate practice to achieve mastery, whether it is music or sports or whatever. With so many demands on students’ time, some academic pursuits will suffer.</p>
<p>Finally, diverse family structures also make it difficult for teachers at the elementary school level to make sure every student is at the same level with regard to basic skills. Some kids come to school, having been read to from the time they were infants, and others may not have any reading materieal whatsoever in the home. Other kids have parents who played number/counting games with them, or provided educational toys like legos. Even with all this disparity, we do manage to produce some pretty exceptional people. And as others have pointed out, international students still see to value American Universities.</p>
<p>Dmd:</p>
<p>I agree with you about the greater freedom of choice in US schools.</p>
<p>An anecdote. A friend of mine received a Ph.D. in economics from a top university and went to teach at a top LAC for what seemed at the time a very good salary (that was in the late 1970s). Three years into her position, her younger brother graduated with a B.A. in economics from an Ivy and was immediately snatched by a Wall Street firm for a starting salary that was higher than hers. If that is the story in econ, can one wonder about the story in math and science?
My own H was a Sputnik baby. When he went on the job market with his Physics Ph.D., there were 600 applicants for a starting position at a Tier 3 school. He switched fields.
When the dot.com boom became the dot.com bust, the enrolment in Berkeley’s introductory course was halved. American students do follow market trends. At least some do. My S is still embarked on a math career even though the prospects for math Ph.D.s are next to nil.</p>
<p>I do agree with the flexibility of US system being one of its greatest strength. That you can shop around classes in colleges before picking majors was one of the main reasons I came. :)</p>
<p>Marite, I think that the US government still seeks math majors to work in the intelligence community or national labs. It’s not pure math, but at least it is work that makes use of math or physics.</p>
<p>Sjmom:</p>
<p>Thanks. I don’t worry about his career. He has plenty of time to decide which way to go. But to follow up on my friend’s story: she has done very well and is in a very prestigious academic position with a 6 figure salary. Her brother with the B.A. degree? he’s a millionnaire.</p>
<p>EmeraldK,</p>
<p>The the state of public education in Seattle has been in decline for many years, going back to the mid-1970s if not earlier. Remember Mayor Royer’s Childrens Initiative? He designated Seattle as “The Children’s City,” but his staff forgot to check the facts. There are fewer families with children in the city limits then and today. Seattle has become a major metropolitan area since Royer’s day, but it has the public school population of much smaller places, such as Columbus, Ohio.</p>
<p>Why is that? The leadership/administration of the schools has been remarkably poor in quality over the years, an astounding fact for a region that was home to the nation’s aerospace industry for decades.</p>
<p>according to the district- enrollment in Seattle public schools has gone from 86,000 students in 117 schools in 1970 to 47,000 students in 100 schools today.
I didn’t really pay attention what was going on in the schools in the 70s- I was in the suburbs 
bridle trails which was actually rather incorrectly named as no one had a horse :(</p>
<p>A number of posts above raise very good points. Our educational system is far from perfect. As a matter of fact, one could argue that it’s terrible, except for the observation that the next several best are even worse.</p>
<p>We leave a lot of kids behind, although serious thought should be given to whether it is a sociological problem more than an educational one, and may be unfixable.</p>
<p>We have a lot of kids that do not want math, engineering or science careers, avoid in depth study of these topics, and don’t seem to stack up well against countries that emphasize these topics, yet we motor on quite well. As some suggest, we could be living on borrowed time and the results of other countries’ better training. But, maybe not.</p>
<p>Even within these limitations, our ed system offers essentially unlimited chances to try again if someone is so motivated. We have multiple paths to a goal, and a higher ed system that is surprisingly meritocratic. For example, my cousin’s son moved to NYC this past year because the mother of his child was accepted as a transfer student to Columbia. She’s in her late 20s. Talk about a nontraditional student!</p>
<p>Try that in Singapore, France or the Netherlands.</p>