Is there a school you WOULDN'T want your kid to go to?

[Pizzagirl]

<p>doschicos, trust me, my adult self has kicked my college-age self many times over this one!</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

It’s a little disingenous – you of the often trotted-out my-local-high-school-has-one-teacher-who-teaches-a-bazillion-science-classes – to all of a sudden pretend that the vast majority of admits to elite schools have had exposure to the kinds of courses an elite math-and-science academy offers.

</p>

<p>If you go back to my original comment, it was about one high school in particular; I stand by that. What students at other high schools have or have not had interests me not at all.</p>

[ucbalumnus]

<p>

@annasdad

I know that Northwestern is not a “super-elite STEM-focused college,” but its average student is at the 96th percentile in SAT math and its 25th percentile student is at the 92nd percentile, so I rather suspect that the students who “are merely normal grade level in math and science” is pretty small.

</p>

<p>High SAT math scores do not necessarily mean that the student is above or even at normal grade level in math in college. SAT math content includes 9th/10th/maybe-11th grade algebra and geometry, not trigonometry and other precalculus topics that a college freshman needs to know to be at grade level (ready for calculus as a college freshman).</p>

<p>Indeed, a very large percentage of college freshmen need to take remedial math in college, or take something less rigorous than normal freshman calculus (e.g. an easier “calculus for business and biology majors” course). This is true even at highly selective schools other than the super-elite STEM-focused schools.</p>

<p>

@annasdad

Except that the student whose comment I reported was a science major, and according to her dad, she wasn’t just talking about the entry-level courses. And since she managed to get selected to a very high-level graduate program, I think it’s safe to assume that she took what was at least on paper a challenging science curriculum.

</p>

<p>Since you mentioned that she was a biology major, she may have taken the most challenging biology courses, but probably not the most challenging chemistry, physics, and math courses.</p>

<p>Also, if the graduate program was an MD or MD/PhD program, then the student may have retaken the freshmen level courses due to medical school requirements, or chosen the less rigorous courses to boost GPA for medical school admissions purposes.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

High SAT math scores do not necessarily mean that the student is above or even at normal grade level in math in college. SAT math content includes 9th/10th/maybe-11th grade algebra and geometry, not trigonometry and other precalculus topics that a college freshman needs to know to be at grade level (ready for calculus as a college freshman).

</p>

<p>Are you seriously suggesting that the typical admitted student at a so-called “top 20” university is likely to be “below grade level” in math or science?</p>

<p>I can’t argue that - especially while I’m ROFLMAO.</p>

<p>

Indeed, a very large percentage of college freshmen need to take remedial math in college, or take something less rigorous than normal freshman calculus (e.g. an easier “calculus for business and biology majors” course). This is true even at highly selective schools other than the super-elite STEM-focused schools.

</p>

<p>You have a reference for that?</p>

<p>

she may have taken … then the student may have retaken …

</p>

<p>I detect a certain amount of straw-grasping.</p>

[alh]

<p>If you thought my post 350 merited the response, “point well taken” - what exactly is being argued now?</p>

[jym626]

<p>Folks- this thread is about schools you wouldnt want to send your kid to. For those that still want to argue the merits of some HS science classes, perhaps its time to start a separate thread.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>No, annasdad. What is being argued is that you are damning Northwestern (and likely other similar elite schools, though you’ve got a special ax to grind up in Evanston, that’s for sure) because one student you know who went through an intensely accelerated m&s high school that included extremely high level courses found it not challenging. Well, NU isn’t going to align its teaching to a hypothetical class of students-who-all-went-to-IMSA-or-comparable-schools, because that isn’t their base. Their base, like all other comparable elite schools with the possible exception of MIT/Caltech, is going to be more along the lines of clearly bright students who have “only” been exposed at most to AP Bio and AP Chem, because the vast majority of schools in this country only go to those levels (IF they go to those levels at all- and many don’t, like your daughter’s “native” high school). </p>

<p>Perhaps you’d find it better if NU made it SO hard for incoming science majors that the diamond-in-the-rough science major from a home school like that your daughter would have attended would have been discouraged and flunked out? You know, the purpose of an institution is to TEACH, not to assume everyone knows everything already.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>@alh > At the moment, ucbalumnus’s thus-far-unsupported generalities.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

Perhaps you’d find it better if NU made it SO hard for incoming science majors that the diamond-in-the-rough science major from a home school like that your daughter would have attended would have been discouraged and flunked out?

</p>

<p>No, but I would find it better if elite colleges in general ramped up their rigor so that the parents who pay inordinate amounts of money to sent their kids there got something more valuable than what they can get for a third to a quarter of the cost at community colleges and less-selective state and private schools.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Oh please. Your college strategy for your D isn’t “look for the rigor.” It’s “follow the money.” Which is FINE - that’s your reality and more power and good luck to you and I mean that sincerely.</p>

<p>But don’t pretend that by excluding the top schools from your list and going to appreciably-lower ones that will offer her money, that you’ve magically found more rigorous schools.</p>

<p>And you ARE exaggerating greatly, to the point of hyperbole, to suggest that the science offerings at NU (and comparable schools) “can be found for a quarter of the cost at community college.” This is where you lose your credibility, big time. </p>

<p>BTW, what DO you know about the rigor of elite schools? YOu didn’t attend one, your daughter didn’t attend one. It seems that you draw your opinion of elite schools based on “well, they cost more money to go there than I could afford, so, well, they can’t be all that good anyway.” Reverse snobbery is just as snobbish as snob-snobbery.</p>

[emeraldkity4]

<p>Indeed, a very large percentage of college freshmen need to take remedial math in college, or take something less rigorous than normal freshman calculus (e.g. an easier “calculus for business and biology majors” course). This is true even at highly selective schools other than the super-elite STEM-focused schools.</p>

<p>

The remedial numbers are staggering, given that the Cal State system admits only freshmen who graduated in the top one-third of their high-school class. About 27,300 freshmen in the 2010 entering class of about 42,700 needed remedial work in math, English or both.

[Cal</a> State campuses overwhelmed by remedial needs - San Jose Mercury News](<a href=“http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_19526032]Cal”>http://www.mercurynews.com/news/ci_19526032)</p>

<p>[Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college</a> - Chicago Sun-Times](<a href=“http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/5189336-418/college-can-be-a-rude-remedial-awakening.html]Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college”>http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/5189336-418/college-can-be-a-rude-remedial-awakening.html)</p>

[RobD]

<p>College board study: [Percentage</a> of Students in Remedial College Classes | The College Completion Agenda](<a href=“College Board Foundation | Home”>College Board Foundation | Home) </p>

<p>Chicago Sun Times article: [Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college</a> - Chicago Sun-Times](<a href=“http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/5189336-418/college-can-be-a-rude-remedial-awakening.html]Report:-Over-a-third-of-students-entering-college”>http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/5189336-418/college-can-be-a-rude-remedial-awakening.html)</p>

<p>ACT report about reading/college readiness: <a href=“http://www.act.org/research/policymakers/pdf/reading_summary.pdf[/url]”>http://www.act.org/research/policymakers/pdf/reading_summary.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

[annasdad]

<p>

Oh please. Your college strategy for your D isn’t “look for the rigor.” It’s “follow the money.”

</p>

<p>Absolutely! Since I’ve seen zero evidence that rigor correlates with money.</p>

<p>

But don’t pretend that by excluding the top schools from your list and going to appreciably-lower ones that will offer her money, that you’ve magically found more rigorous schools.

</p>

<p>Not more rigorous, but not demonstrably less so.</p>

<p>

And you ARE exaggerating greatly, to the point of hyperbole, to suggest that the science offerings at NU (and comparable schools) “can be found for a quarter of the cost at community college.”

</p>

<p>Well, of course, only the lower-level science courses, since that is all CCs offer.</p>

<p>

BTW, what DO you know about the rigor of elite schools?

</p>

<p>To avoid boring the lurkers, I won’t bother to repeat the passages I’ve cited numerous times about the lack of any correlation between eliteness and rigorous education. If you’re really interested, PM me and I’ll send you some links.</p>

[alh]

<p>

No, but I would find it better if elite colleges in general ramped up their rigor so that the parents who pay inordinate amounts of money to sent their kids there got something more valuable than what they can get for a third to a quarter of the cost at community colleges and less-selective state and private schools.

</p>

<p>What is this “rigor”? Does it mean a college freshman has to be forced to learn a certain amount? Or does it mean a certain amount is available to the college student who chooses to learn it? What I wanted for my kids was a place that had the opportunities available for them to fulfill their potential. I didn’t think anyone, myself included, should insist they fulfill that potential. You compared the magnet HS environment to graduate school. In grad school you have the opportunity to achieve great things, but no one forces you to do so. If you are fortunate you get a great mentor. However, a great mentor isn’t necessary to academic success. It is true there are many colleges where bright students can achieve educations comparable to those available at the very top rated colleges. Some of these bright students might be able to educate themselves without college at all. However, some colleges will have unequaled resources. Blossom had an excellent post on this point re. Art History at Yale.</p>

<p>I don’t think grades have anything to do with what a student has learned. Or with rigor. Whatever that means.</p>

[icemaker]

<p>Quote:</p>

<p>The school that sent my daughter an email with the subject line:
“Your invited to…” [an event for admitted students].
This is a fairly well-respected school, but that pretty much ruined its image for me! </p>

<p>Jea828,</p>

<p>Don’t keep me hanging! What school made such an error?</p>

[jym626]

<p>

Oh please. Your college strategy for your D isn’t “look for the rigor.” It’s “follow the money.”

Absolutely! Since I’ve seen zero evidence that rigor correlates with money.</p>

<p>

That, and a mediocre ACT score.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>emeraldkity and RobD, if you’re going to include the CalState colleges and MalcolmX college in the “super elite” set, then yes, a lot of students require remedial work. But I somehow don’t think those were at the front of ucb’s mind when he was making his generalizations.</p>

[ohiobassmom]

<p>

For those that still want to argue the merits of some HS science classes, perhaps its time to start a separate thread.

</p>

<p>Amen. This *was *a great thread, for awhile.</p>

[collegealum314]

<p>Northwestern is a fine school, and I think if I had to do it over again, I might have gone there. Granted, there are certain majors (e.g., chemistry) for which you would basically come in at junior level (or midway through junior level) and have basically only a year and a half of curriculum left in terms of what you need to learn for the degree. In reality, you can’t pass out of organic chem so there is going to some review. Another thing–if you didn’t get an “A” in orgo in high school (and many don’t), you are better off taking it again anyway. Regardless, you can still take a year or more of grad classes or, as many do, take the opportunity to learn about other fields.</p>

<p>I know one guy from my magnet school who triple majored in chem, physics, and math at Stanford. That wouldn’t have been possible if he didn’t already come in knowing a lot. Probably, he could have also majored in just one and just get very advanced, but he chose not to do that.</p>

<p>I said that NU wouldn’t be harder than the magnet high school (I think in general it is equivalent,) but there is still more stuff to learn. The point of the high school is to give you critical thinking skills, expose you to ways of thinking. For example, you’re going to have experience in the precise and rigorous thinking required for writing proofs. You may learn more theorems by taking topology or something not offered in high school, but the kind of thinking won’t be different. </p>

<p>So perhaps we can stop taking potshots at Northwestern and/or Annasdad’s kid’s high school. I think that’s why this thread keeps returning to that–people return to defend their alma mater.</p>

[annasdad]

<p>

What is this “rigor”? Does it mean a college freshman has to be forced to learn a certain amount? Or does it mean a certain amount is available to the college student who chooses to learn it?

</p>

<p>The latter.</p>

<p>

What I wanted for my kids was a place that had the opportunities available for them to fulfill their potential.

</p>

<p>Me too. Fortunately, I have about 3,000 choices for places to send them.</p>