Is this fair?

<p>Okay I posted this in the HS forum too but I’m curious as to what the parents think.</p>

<p>For the past few weeks, I have been helping my sister out with a program called AWANA. it’s kind of like Sunday school but it’s held on Wednesday nights and there’s not really much teaching…the first part of the evening my sister teaches a lesson about something to do with God. Then we move on to a period of time where the kids recite memorized verses for “jewels” (these kids are roughly 5-8). Then we have a game, then they go home. This is roughly 2.5 hours per week. Normally I would get community service for it since it’s a non-profit organization. But I was told today that since it’s a religious organization, I do not receive community service hours. Does that seem fair? Am I right in saying that I feel slightly ripped off?</p>

<p>Now let me add to this: I have 93 hours of community service already, and to graduate I have to have 115. I’m not worried about getting that extra 12, but shouldn’t I be able to get it doing something I enjoy, whether or not it’s a religious activity?</p>

<p>I don’t know how it works at your school, but many organizations will not award any community service for religious service that involves any preaching or proselytizing. I think the reasons for that are obvious.</p>

<p>The “helping little kids memorize verses for rewards” thing is a borderline issue under the above criterion, but I could see the school having just decided that they didn’t want to have to try to make distinctions between proselytizing and not, and just banning the whole thing. Not sure I agree with a blanket ban, but I definitely agree that religious preaching is not community service.</p>

<p>We’re not really preaching though. The kids are already Christian…it’s not like we’re trying to convert anyone. I honestly don’t see a problem…it’s not hurting anyone, and a nonprofit should be a nonprofit regardless of whether or not it’s religious.</p>

<p>It will count for colleges, as an EC,if your school doesn’t count it, it doesn’t matter, you can still enjoy it, put it on applications</p>

<p>My Ds school didn’t recognize any of her service work for the City- on the youth commission nor in the mayor’s office…ah well, sure it was unfair, but she enjoyed doing it, and it was alot of hours and work</p>

<p>It was irratating for sure, it looked like she had the bare minimum required hours, and didn’t get the 200hr club thing, even though she had over 300 hrs in “uncounted” service hours above the counted</p>

<p>in the long run, that award meant little and her other work was more valuable to her</p>

<p>So it may be one of those times to let it go…and do what you love…not such a bad thing, after all!!!</p>

<p>I don’t want to fully get into this debate, but just one point:</p>

<p>When a child is 5-8, who exactly has made the decision that they are Christian? Certainly not them. I’d be willing to put a fair bit of money on the fact that most of those children are there because their parents took them there. Not that all the children don’t want to be there, but it’s not exactly an issue of them all voluntarily coming to church on a Wednesday night. There’s an element of indoctrination here, colluding between the church, yourselves and the parents.</p>

<p>I think there’s a larger issue about religious indoctrination of children. But that’s neither here nor there, since the issue at heart here is the blanket ban of religious activities counting for service hours.</p>

<p>Like I said above, I don’t totally agree with it, but I see the rationale for it. Lots of religious activities are really not legitimate community service (instead being preaching and trying to convert people) and school officials probably don’t want to be put in a situation where they have to make judgment calls on that stuff.</p>

<p>I can tell you right now, all the kids I work with want to be there. They are so happy and joyful to be there, and they genuinely love God. Are you really telling me that because they’re young they can’t have religion?</p>

<p>I don’t want to debate this either.</p>

<p>I may have found a loophole. The district only requires us to have 40 hours, and my 40 are already complete. The rest are for my SLC, which I believe may allow me to get the hours from the church. I’m going to talk to the SLC Community Service person tomorrow to make sure, but I think kids in my SLC have gotten religious hours in the past. I can see your rationale as well, and I appreciate your perspective. :)</p>

<p>The same thing happened to my S, who he did hundreds of hours in a national temple youth group in an elected office. NONE of his best stuff “counted” for his h.s. community service hour count. He did use the national youth group work for his essays because it was a key aspect of his high school years. As an example, that national youth group cleared brush in downtown Buffalo after a major storm, so they often did community service for the larger Community here, but it didn’t count at all.</p>

<p>He also wanted, as a senior, to volunteer in the local temple’s Hebrew school on Tuesday afternoons. The odd thing is that same Hebrew school gets teachers aides from 10 different h.s. in the area, and some will count it for CS, others won’t. That made it feel unfair because some schools in this region let it ride through, but not his.</p>

<p>He was told that the history of this issue was some faith groups (not ours, not yours I bet) considered going door-to-door peddling religious literature as “community service” and from that, the public schools concluded it was no real “service” to the community to do this. Then that kind of spread into all of these afterschool Hebrew and Sunday/Wednesday schools.</p>

<p>He was also told that if the HEbrew school helped people outside of their own relgiion, that could count. Sometimes the teachers aides go and fill thanksgiving baskets for the needy, and pick apples that go to area homes where people aren’t all of the same faith. But most of the time is spent just teaching the faith and language to those within that faith community. </p>

<p>It really IS community service, but to one’s own community, I think. I honestly don’t think too many kids suffer from too much help in their own church that they have to be pried away from it, but maybe some need that exposure. That doesn’t seem the point of this limitation, however. </p>

<p>My S filled up his required hourly count on something he considered lame, compared to this really interesting activity. Probably you’ll do that too, because you won’t have time to really question this fully or get it overturned.</p>

<p>So I agree it’s a bit unfair, because you are doing a community service to your own community. </p>

<p>To me there’s a HUGE difference between “proselytizing” (spreading your gospel to others in town) versus practicing service and teaching your own community. I can’t figure out how those two got so confused in the minds of
educrats who ruled down thumbs on kids helping in Sunday and HEbrew schools. </p>

<p>Everybody needs help of some kind or another, and I don’t see why it must be in the context of a homeless shelter (where a kid might be overwhelmed and not that helpful) compared to working with little kids in a classroom, where you really can offer a lot of service, or as in this case, under the supervision of experienced teachers! </p>

<p>I agree it’s not fair, but like you, he was stuck with it. BTW, anybody from any faith who wanted to learn Hebrew could come to this school…it’s just that nobody else does! By charter, it teaches Hebrew and Jewish customs to all comers. Just that the only ones who actually come are Jewish. The fact that he helped int he language division, not the religious teachings classrooms, was irrelevant; none of it counted.</p>

<p>BTW, in Canada, they approach it quite differently. Hebrew, Chinese, and scores of other languages are called “Heritage Languages” and these afterschools receive some government subsidy. For this reason, they put all the Hebrew on the weekday afternoons and save alll the religious teaching for Sundays, thereby qualifying for help (just as the Vietnamese language schools, etc. get) in the language component only, not the religious.</p>

<p>Maybe if we all just “babble in tongues” it should get credit as a “language” j/k</p>

<p>Sure it’s fair. Isn’t Christian service something that you are supposed to do for its own sake and not for the promise of some reward? Earning both blessings from from heaven and earthly community service hours would be double dipping.</p>

<p>That’s not even my point, coureur. If you read my first post, you read that I’m not worried about the hours. I only need 12 more, which I will exceed through my Senior Class Project. I’m just upset that I can’t get credit for doing something I love. After all, isn’t the whole point of Community Service to use your talents and abilities and PASSION to serve others? Who is my school to tell me that I’m allowed to have a passion for some things, but not others?</p>

<p>It will count on your college apps which is where it is actually relevant.
As you stated you don’t need it for graduation- so why get your knickers in a twist? As you also stated you are also not in charge you are just helping your sister.
A while ago someone else wanted to get community service because she was helping her sister sweep up at her beauty salon, that doesn’t count either.
Oh well.</p>

<p>I don’t consider helping out at a church community service if the help given is to the members of the church. If, through the church, you deliver food to the homeless or sing at a nursing home, then that is community service. I believe that is the way many school districts make the distinction.</p>

<p>I think your school is wrong and should give you credit.</p>

<p>Vyse, do you think someone should get credit for being a Sunday school teacher? It is volunteer work, but how is it community service?</p>

<p>How is it not community service? A service is something you do for someone else at their request. If you do that for the community and don’t receive any compensation, its community service.</p>

<p>Community service is something that you do not derive benefit from-
If you are doing community service for a church community that you belong to- if you are doing it to help a family member- you are getting benefit.
If it is something that you don’t benefit from- then that would count as community service.
It needs to be altruistic
( I would add if you are upset about not getting “credit” you are missing the point about community service :rolleyes:)</p>

<p>Pure altruism can’t exist. Everything we do is in our own rational self interest. If you do an act of kindness for that warm fuzzy feeling you get, that’s rational self interest at work. Check out Richard Emerson and Karen Cook on social exchange theory.</p>

<p>I disagree. Some enlightened souls (and some not so enlightened but on their way) really DO care about others!</p>

<p>The ‘warm fuzzy feeling’ is a cold explanation that does not take into account the human spirit, or, to be more accurate, the quality of LOVE and benevolence that is SOMETIMES found in SOME human spirits.</p>

<p>I’m not upset about not getting credit. <em>sigh</em> how many times am I going to have to explain it?</p>

<p>It’s wrong for a school to tell me that just because they don’t agree with it, it doesn’t “count” (yes, that is what they’re saying). Also, I have a strong suspiscion that while no one cares about this, if my school asked a young muslim woman to remove her headscarf, there would be an uproar. They’re both religious discrimination. The former and the latter are wrong. THAT is why I’m upset…because they’re basically telling me that my religion doesn’t count as important.</p>

<p>cartera45, yes, I do think a Sunday School teacher deserves hours. They are not being paid unless they are also the pastor at the church (unusual, since the pastor is giving the main sermon), and I can’t really see other compensation except for the thanks of others and knowing that you have SERVICED YOUR COMMUNITY.</p>

<p>Also, I would like to know why it matters that I am not in charge. Are you seriously trying to tell me that because I’m not in charge it doesn’t count? if that’s your argument no one in my school should get credit, because none of us have started a non-profit.</p>

<p>How are you getting benefits for doing something for your family? When I do things for my family, I don’t get allowance or anything. I do it because it’s the right thing to do. </p>

<p>Also, emeraldkitty, please don’t try and tell me I don’t know what community service is. I worked for 73 hours as a summer school teacher’s aide. I gave up 8/10 weeks of my summer in a hot, un-airconditioned classroom. When I was told I could not get both class credits and hours, I gladly chose the hours because I didn’t feel I needed class credits. I know what the point of community service is, kthx.</p>

<p>Grace, I understand your point. On the surface, I would agree with you that your choice of service should not be disregarded because it’s religious in nature.</p>

<p>I can see the other side, too, though. I don’t think it’s so much religious discrimination as it is that it’s just a very grey area. Where do you draw the line? Case in point: those rich televangelists who are proselytizing - is it really to help people, or is it to get rich?</p>

<p>And, helping the homeless, with no expectation of getting anything in return, is different from helping someone in the hope that they’ll join your church, or helping someone who is already in your church and isn’t really in need, and you aren’t really giving them something tangible, although to YOU, religious instruction is certainly tangible, but these kids are already part of your church, and that’s like an extended family, and might be classified as doing things for your actual family. We certainly don’t get credit when we babysit our little brother or help our elderly grandparents, right? Your church is sort of like your family, in that respect. You have a RELATIONSHIP with them. I think maybe THAT is the real reason it’s not considered community service. It has nothing to do with religion, just as helping your family has nothing to do with religion. It’s about the relationship. Community service is viewed as helping people you don’t have a relationship with.</p>

<p>I can see your point…I just don’t know that I agree with it.</p>

<p>I also think it’s unfair that I don’t get credit, while someone who works at the YMCA does, or the Red Cross. Both of those are Christian Organizations. So is Salvation Army. So it’s like you said: Where do you draw the line?</p>

<p>I’m going to bed now…I appreciate all the insight. I’m still a little steamed, but I guess that’s life.</p>