Exactly! I’m worried she’s going to get a C in something in college and feel as if she’s completely failed, etc, and fall to pieces. Her go-to isn’t usually fall to pieces, but I’m afraid it might all be too much. Sigh.
She might be fine. I probably shouldn’t have read What Made Maddy Run, lol.
That’s fair. I more meant that comment in the context of when your child is not necessarily tigerish already, but has tigerish peers. And I guess what I was saying is in those contexts, it is not necessarily a good idea to go into stealth fighter attack mode. Particularly since as they get older and move on to college and beyond, they can kinda just stop listening to you no matter what you tell them they must do.
But I agree with you if your own child is doing fundamentally unhealthy things for reasons that seem likely to persist, then aggressive intervention is likely warranted–if possible.
The point about a “tigerrish” peer group is profound. My kids have been around more than a few classmates who were the victims of tiger parenting and who were tiger classmates. A common denominator about those who have tiger parents is their inability to deal with problems/issues “outside” of their comfort zone.
Yeah, I am reasonably confident that my S24 is well-prepared academically with good fundamental study habits, but I am also confident that if things don’t go as well as he hopes, and he thinks he can do better, he will be able to make productive changes. Indeed, it has happened before, like he may not have started out where he wanted in a new, challenging class, and then he talked with the teacher and figured out what he needed to do to finish strong. And we were not directly involved in any of that past midway in middle school or so, he accepted it was his responsibility to talk to his teachers, not a problem for us to solve.
I know some of these kids, though, are not necessarily particularly comfortable going straight to their teachers on their own, and are more used to peers or parents or so on telling them how to succeed. In fact, again I don’t really know, but it sounds like S24’s roommate already has some sort of formula he is following for success in the standard pre-med classes. And if that works out well, he may be fine, but if it doesn’t? I am not sure what will happen.
I work with young people whose lives have been a long upward trajectory of success. Never even gotten a B, let alone experienced actual failure. “fall to pieces” is mild-- some of them are absolutely unable to listen to feedback which is not “You are terrific” or “I’ve never had anyone as talented as you on the team”.
The corporate world is very unforgiving to people who cannot absorb feedback! Every day is feedback-- just walking out of a meeting (or the post-meeting recap on Zoom) you are going to get tips on better ways to handle a tough question, suggestions on ways to format a slide to make your point more obvious, or even “You are struggling to keep your composure when someone disagrees with you and we are going to work on that”. And the semi-annual review? Where an employee is actually forced to sit and listen for half an hour- including the dreaded 360 degree feedback (so not just your boss- but also your peers)?
I am not a mental health professional, but you are wise to identify this as a potential challenge for your D now. Life is filled with profound (or even moderate) failures as well as successes and triumphs, and the earlier someone learns to handle both sides of the coin, the easier it is to navigate the downturns.
I worked in outplacement for a while… the emotional wreckage I saw- people who were part of a 5K person downsizing who absolutely couldn’t accept that it wasn’t THEM-- but a global recession-- and they were not able to pick up the pieces after a brief mourning period to figure out a productive job search strategy. So sad. Resilience isn’t just about working hard and pushing (the grit part that the best-selling authors like Malcolm Gladwell like to tout). Resilience is also about developing an embracing inner voice which allows you to fail-- accept the failure- and then pivot.
Hugs to your D- who sounds fantastic btw… and hugs to you.
It is weird to me that these kids haven’t challenged themselves more and experienced at least some sort of failure before entering the workforce. Anyone can do that in college: if you have all As then go and apply for a Rhodes scholarship, run for student body president or apply to a super-selective internship, not just the one that your favorite professor has an inside track to.
As I said in another thread, my D has seen that many of the most naturally talented ballet dancers don’t make it in dance companies because they’ve never had to struggle and can’t cope when it gets really tough.
My classmates and I graduated into a recession. None of us-- whether STEM or humanities- expected a job to fall into our laps. There was no internet- so you sent out HUNDREDS of resumes and cover letters, lined up early to snag a spot for an on-campus interview, and pounded the pavement (literally- I remember handing my resume to receptionists sitting in office towers and then going across the street to hand out more). So the mere process of finding a job meant assimilating failure into our vocabulary and then moving on.
I know the situation has changed for the 2024/2025 grads. But up until then, many young graduates were lucky enough to be graduating into the “quiet quitting” or “war for talent” or however you want to characterize the hiring situation. Kids with ho-hum grades, experience, talent, motivation having their choice of three solid job offers!
So perhaps the “I don’t know what it’s like to fail” attitude is just a by-product of being lucky. Tight labor market means you don’t have to do much introspection about what you want to be when you grow up. UX Designer? That sounds fun. Social Media coordinator for a hot brand? Hey, why not. Community Manager for a growing real estate investment fund that builds and leases apartments to other young 20 somethings? Could be a great career- real estate only goes up, right? And companies that hire lots of new grads are always successful, right? Bear Stearns- who’s that- someone’s grandpa?
Oh, my kid is used to dealing with her stuff. I taught as an adjunct at a SLAC from 97-2004. It was the very beginning, I think, of parents calling to ask why their kid received such and such grade on their paper and I was STUNNED. Also: yay, FERPA!
My kiddo has heard all about this and handles her stuff with teachers and coaches. I’m available as back-up, but I’m not jumping in unless you really can’t handle the situation- you have to try to solve the problem yourself.
When it comes to academics, the “opportunity to fail” can depend upon where you live. If you live in the city or a wealthy suburb, you likely have numerous opportunities to challenge yourself.
Those who come from smaller schools in rural areas may have no real comparison; they were the smartest person around, and were repeatedly told that, so why would they fall short at a highly selective school?
I think it worries me so much because I’ve worked with these kids, too! I told a young (she was 23, had just graduated UPenn) last year (it was her first job) that if there’s something big happening on your usual WFH day (think a major event) you show up to the office and WFH another day. She went over my head and told my manager I was hostile. The manager and I were like, WTAF?
I mentioned it to her because I had a feeling she probably didn’t understand this–I was trying to save her some grief when someone above me said, Where’s X?
Blew my mind that she was so upset. If someone had clued me in like that when I was 23, I would’ve been so happy they were trying to let me know how things worked!
Hugs to you. I would have been over the moon if my manager had tried to give me helpful tips during my first job-- the kind of feedback we all got (and this was in an actual “executive training program”) was of the “make sure your home address is correct for payroll or else your W2 will be late when it’s tax time”. Not nearly as helpful as your advice!
My 24 year old was appalled. That young woman gives gen Z a bad rap.
Yes but my point was that you’ll still have the chance to challenge yourself, either by competing at that highly selective school or by failing to be admitted to it 
, before joining the workforce.
But it sounds like per @blossom’s post, many kids have coasted through college with a high GPA (yay grade inflation!) and got jobs easily in recent years, without trying to seek the most competitive opportunities while in college, where they would have been very likely to experience disappointment.
I’ve said earlier in the thread that I was keen to see my kids to compete for unlikely opportunities because even if (when) they failed, it was good to build that resiliency. So yes, S was really disappointed not to win the Truman and Marshall scholarships, but it was much better to have tried during college and realized then that you can’t win everything (because he is very competitive and did win many other prizes), than come to that realization in the workplace when you first screw up a project or fail to get promoted.
As a total aside - your employer actually makes managers write reviews?!? I’ve been out of the corporate world for 20 years (own my own business now) and I was already writing my own “reviews” before I left (my boss asked me to do it). My husband has had to write HIS own reviews for years (I usually write them) - and he has a really good job.
My H still reviews all his direct reports.
Glad to know someone is still doing it. I always figured that was part of managing people - as opposed to pushing it off onto your employees.
My older S works for a large financial institution. He has shown me part of his reviews. They are multi-page long documents! 3/4 I would say are glowing comments. The rest are nicely worded constructive criticism (and fair knowing my kid) and ways to develop his career. I was very impressed. His managers seems to put a lot of thought and effort into them.
In my workplace, ours are super lame. We have 12-15 categories where we have to rate our employees (1-5) and write a sentence or two. Mine are usually like “CM works great on a team! She is very organized! She has a great work ethic!” But this is an improvement over our last system which didn’t get done most years, as it wasn’t tied to any raises. And the accountabilities were so bizarre. My #1 most important accountability? “Does not get food on plans.” I kid you not.
Some of them are really out there because they just have no clue about things we (olders) wouldn’t think twice about. I always try to steer them right. A few years ago I had someone–first job out of Berkeley, working with me at Berkeley-- and I helped him sign up for benefits. He was initially going to pick the PPO which was like, 250/month, vs. the el cheapo HMO that would cost him almost nothing. I said, do you have any health issues? Things you regularly see a doctor for? And he shook his head. I told him to go for the cheaper one. He was going to go for the Blue Cross option because it was the only one he’d heard of. Poor kid probably made 60k and had 30k in debt-- pick the cheaper plan!
I can’t imagine there is any value (learning, improving, introspection) in writing your own review! Leaders in the organizations I’ve worked for are evaluated in part on how good they are developing their own people… so the incentive to be thoughtful around feedback is very real. The “Lord of the Flies” teams don’t cut it any more!
One of the most helpful pieces of feedback I ever got was “Your first impulse may not be your best impulse.” Which of course my parents had been telling me since I was two years old! Learning to sit quietly until I ran through all the alternatives was a powerful tool!
It’s like the young team member with no dependents picking the enhanced disability plan… and you try to be helpful by asking “who is depending on your paycheck besides you and the dog?”