Israeli troops launch raid deep into Lebanon

Parent Cafe
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<p>“Vossron, please explain why you think a return to the 1967 borders will make any difference, given that the above is the fundamental basis for Hamas’ very existance (given that it is in their charter).”</p>

<p>A repudiation of the charter and the disarming of Hamas would be one of the conditions Israel would specifiy.</p>

<p>“THe first step should be the recognition of the sovereign state of Israel.”</p>

<p>Yet another of the conditions Israel would specify before beginning withdrawal, that all parties recognize Israel. The issue here is the bold first moves toward peace. It is senseless to go on killing each other just because neither side will utter the first important words toward compromise.</p>

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<p>Vossrun you seem to forget that Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon six years ago, but that didn’t stop Hezbollah from invading, killing, kidnapping, and attacking.</p>

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<p>Fact is, Vossron, and I have heard this straight from Palestinian and Arab friends myself, in person: recognition of Israel is LAST, not first. Read Mini’s post two or so pages back, and my response. It’s wishful, naive, pie-in-the-sky thinking that the recognition will be the first step. The “implicit” recognition, of the head of Hamas right before they did snatched the soldier, was a complete and utter joke. That was no recognition at all, if one read the fine print, which still talked about “greater Palestine” and “right of return”. </p>

<p>The Arabs have no intention of acknowledging Israel’s right to exist. Even those countries with whom Israel has made “peace” (Eqypt, Jordan), there is still enormous anti-Israel, anti-Jew rhetoric. As an American Jew, my husband would not be allowed to speak at a professional conference in Dubai, as in most other countries in the Arab world, even as an expert in his field. The Protocols of the Elders of Zion rhetoric is alive and well in every one of these countries, including the ones that purport to be friendly to Israel. If you never saw this exhibit at the Holocaust Museum in DC, it is unbelievably eye opening.</p>

<p>One cannot simply fantasize about peace in the ME. The reality is something altogether different.</p>

<p>And zoos, I have the feeling you and I would have plenty to talk about. RoRo, you too.</p>

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<p>But, despite international pressure and extreme practical consequences (i.e., loss of foreign aid) Hamas has been consistent in its assertion that it will not repudiate its charter. Note again the wording of Article 11:</p>

<p>“It, or any part of it, should not be squandered: it, or any part of it, should not be given up. Neither a single Arab country nor all Arab countries, neither any king or president, nor all the kings and presidents, neither any organization nor all of them, be they Palestinian or Arab, possess the right to do that.”</p>

<p>Given this, why would you suggest that a return to 1967 borders would be sufficient for Hamas to repudiate the demand for Israel’s destruction that it considers mandated by Allah?</p>

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<p>“Vossrun you seem to forget that Israel withdrew completely from Lebanon six years ago”</p>

<p>Withdrawal from Lebanon was insignificant compared to withdrawal to 1967 borders.</p>

<p>“recognition of Israel is LAST, not first”</p>

<p>It need not be first; the order of the steps is one of the many details to be worked out. The first steps are to <em>talk</em> about intentions, intention to withdraw if conditions are met, intention to recognize, etc., much discussion until action begins.</p>

<p>“Given this, why would you suggest that a return to 1967 borders would be sufficient for Hamas to repudiate the demand for Israel’s destruction that it considers mandated by Allah?”</p>

<p>Israel can say that one of the conditions is that Hamas be disarmed and disbanded, and require a referendum by the Palentinian people reflecting Hamas’s irrelevance. There may be many previously unthinkable conditions. </p>

<p>Everyone has to get out of the old box to solve this. I think we all agree that the alternative is endless killing which neither side will stop nor be able to stop.</p>

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<p>My Ds friend’s grandma was seriouslly injured in Lebanon…yeah, that 80 year old lady was dangerous, we are hoping she survives</p>

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<p>She was just a terrorist, and deserved it for living on the airport tarmac.</p>

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<p>Hamas’ irrelevance? It just won the Palestinian majority vote. </p>

<p>Hamas’ disarmament? Similar to the mandated disarmament of Hezbollah that never happened?</p>

<p>Its fine to say “get out of the box”. But you have suggested preconditions to an agreement that recent history clearly indicates are extraordinarily unlikely to be met. This is fantasy, not a realistic basis for a negotiated solution. So what is the point?</p>

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<p>CGM: You still owe me an apology for your lies yesterday.</p>

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<p>I OWE you an apology? For lies? I never lied…I read what you wrote, and understood what you were saying in a certain way…it was my understanding of your posts combined- </p>

<p>I will never apologiize for opinions and interpeting of what some one says, and when you read your posts and put the pieces together I was pretty close to the truth of what you were saiyng, and that bothers you</p>

<p>get over it</p>

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<p>

WORD!</p>

<p>…</p>

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<p>CGM: You flat-out, bald-faced lied through your teeth. Your own posts prove it. You are a poster with no credibility who should be ashamed of yourself.</p>

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<p>Excuse me Fountain? She attributed to me ugly opinions that I do not hold and did not voice. She twisted words, lied and was caught. You find that acceptable? I wonder how you would feel if you ran afoul of her orthodoxy and she decided to create a fection involving you.</p>

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<p>ZM,</p>

<p>sorry if the sarcasm did not come across. If you want an apology over a slander from CGM…don’t hold your breath. She’s called me every name in the book, including but not limited to “bigot.” There’s a thread on the 2nd page of this forum wherein she does so relentlessly…it’s like water off this ducks back. She’s harmless, really.</p>

<p>

<a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=202478&page=9&pp=15[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=202478&page=9&pp=15&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

<p>But I must say, this one was almost too hard to take (first line on the page) <a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=202478&page=11&pp=15[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=202478&page=11&pp=15&lt;/a&gt; You can only imagine how I felt when I read it;)</p>

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<p>Fountain posted: “ZM, sorry if the sarcasm did not come across. If you want an apology over a slander from CGM…don’t hold your breath. She’s called me every name in the book, including but not limited to “bigot.” There’s a thread on the 2nd page of this forum wherein she does so relentlessly…it’s like water off this ducks back. She’s harmless, really”</p>

<p>Thanks for clarifying. You’re probably right about no apology, but I’m going to point it out from time to time because I refuse to take her seriously now.</p>

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<p>zoosermom posts:</p>

<p>"Allmusic posted: “The truth is, I think most Palestinians would like to live in their own state, in peace and security. It’s their leadership and militant groups that are the problem.”</p>

<p>Do you think that’s really true? I mean completely true, I’m not questioning your honesty in any way. The Palestinian people did vote for Hamas, they do have a pretty violent culture, and the terror groups are populated by Palestinians. I think there are some, perhaps many, Palestinians who want good and peaceful lives, but I do think there are also many who don’t.</p>

<p>ossron posted: “ozym, that touches on my point, that leaders tend to be more to the sides than the majority of moderate citizens of any country. Moderate Palestinians would be more able to find peace with moderate Israelis, but moderates have no voice.”</p>

<h2>I’m not completely convinced that there is a significant number of moderate Palestinians."</h2>

<p>Sorry if I followed your train of thought</p>

<p>Paleisistinan populate (which implies a good portion of) terrorist groups</p>

<p>That paleistians elects a violent (implied terrorist group)</p>

<p>That there are few moderate Palestinians, as in not a significant number</p>

<p>And from your statements, combined, it appeared you said that Palesitians were terrorists</p>

<p>If you don’t want a good peaceful life, what kind of life do you want then?</p>

<p>If you talk about Palesitinians populating terrorist groups, electing a group that is violent, guess I must have not read deep enough into your posts and shouldn’t have put the pieces together</p>

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<p>CGM continues to distort: “And from your statements, combined, it appeard you said that Palesitians were terrorists”</p>

<p>APPEARED to say. That’s a remarkable statement. It either did say or it didn’t. It didn’t. You CHOOSE, based on your own idealogical orthodoxy, to attribute to me an opinion that I don’t hold so that you can bash and rave. I did not say that and you know it. As the above quote from you makes clear. As for putting the pieces together, my prior post – quoted by you – makes very clear that my position is much more nuanced than you are stating.</p>

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<p>“So what is the point?”</p>

<p>The point is for Israel to try something extraordinarily bold, even if it is considered extaordinarily unlikely to succeed. Everything else which has been tried has failed.</p>

<p>From the pro-Zionist <a href=“palestinefacts.org”>palestinefacts.org;

<p>“No one realistically expects Israel to withdraw before its security is assured. UNSCR 242 emphatically does not put any preconditions on Israel (or the Palestinian Arabs for that matter). Israel is perfectly within its rights to remain in place until there is a negotiated peace agreement acceptable to Israel as well as to the Palestinian Arabs.”</p>

<p>I agree with this. My suggestion is that Israel simply make a <em>statement</em> as a starting point toward a negotiated peace agreement.</p>

<p>I think we have exhausted my suggestion, which indeed has as great a chance of failure as any other, but it has not been tried.</p>

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<p>I put all your statements together, which is often how people communicate and learn.</p>

<p>And from your words, I made a statement about what stated in your words.</p>

<p>If that is not what you meant. well, it is what came across.</p>

<p>You said
A: most palestinians are not moderate
B: palestinians populate terror groups (populate implies more then just a light memborship)
C: palestinians elected a violent (impled terror group)
D: some, perhaps many, Palestinians who want good and peaceful lives, but I do think there are also many who don’t.
E: If you don’t want a peacful life. then you want a violent one
F: Many implies a large #
G: Election is a majority, well, in most countries</p>

<p>So, with those pieces, I made a statement about you knowing what most palestinians think, and that most according to you are terrorists, if they don’t want peace, if they elect violent people, if most aren’t moderates</p>

<p>Guess I didn’t delve deep ehough into your brain with my esp, unlike you delved so deeply into the palestinians</p>

<p>By the way, that group was elected for many reasons…</p>

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<p>And nope no appologizes unless you appologize for calling me a liar</p>

<p>we can call it even i suppose</p>