Students are getting jobs with Alabama degrees. Build your resumes, graduates, and then work your way back to sweet home Chicago…
https://career.sa.ua.edu/wp-content/uploads/sites/4/2018/01/University-Summary-Report-May-2017.pdf
I don’t think it’s at all surprising this matters for your first job. When I went to college back in the dark ages we were warned you get what you get and you don’t have a fit for your first job. Taking on a new grad from anywhere without professional experience and references is a risk. At my first internship as a college senior, one of the interns had to be removed forcibly by law enforcement at one point. My first job was a job I got out of recruiting at my college. It was a job in the Midwest and I went to college in the Midwest. I was offered jobs including moving expenses on both coasts after I had experience and references. There were schools I preferred to hire when I was hiring from as well because the grads were consistently better prepared to hit the ground running.
I have a friend who did all his schooling through PhD in the Midwest at schools that don’t break the top 50. He had no intentions of leaving, but a large company on the coast found him and recruited him hard, and he’s moving his whole family to the coast soon. I live in a neighborhood full of transplants.
I hardly find the location of a first job not being exactly where you want geographically tragic nor reason to take on significant extra debt so a kid can attend school locally in case they decide to settle in the area. It’s so hard to even know when students start college where the’re going to want to land. Even if they say they know.
@Much2learn Many state schools have funding issues. I cannot speak for all states, but as I said (#234) Illinois’ problem is exacerbated by weak directionals. There is no prestige factor at these schools. So we agree there.
Where I disagree is your perception as to how UIUC has handled its funding issues and your perception that in-state students find university policies “unattractive”.
Funding: CS, Engineering and Business have figured out how to utilize corporate and personal donations. These donations helped make the BIF (Business Instructional Facility) a reality. And recently Larry Gies donated $150 million to CoB. http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/local/breaking/ct-met-univ-illinois-donation-20171026-story.html For Engineering all you have to do is walk north of Green St and see all the growth. I googled and found this: http://www.news-gazette.com/news/local/2017-04-01/grainger-foundation-pledges-25m-ui-engineering-scholarships.html.
Then playing to its strengths there’s the new Engineering-base College of Medicine https://mntl.illinois.edu/news/article/11433 and I believe they just broke ground on the new Siebel Center for Design. https://news.illinois.edu/view/6367/412760
UIUC does have state funding problems, but has found a way to make the best of the situation.
Student dissatisfaction:. I’m not sure who you’re talking to, but I believe a lot, if not the majority of students like knowing they have been admitted by major. Personally I hear much more dissatisfaction from my friends who have/had kids at schools who talked about the stress of not knowing if their child will get into their desired major.
i*
Also, the U of I kids who tend to voice their displeasure the most are the ones who want to gain admission to the university under lower stat requirements and then transfer into a major like CS. It’s not going to happen.
Lastly, I’ll just add that most of the people I know are very happy with their UIUC experience and more importantly their outcome. I believe it’s this satisfaction from actual U of I parents that angers those who are denied their major the most. Unfortunately the former is greatly outnumbered by the latter. Like California there are a lot more high caliber students than the desired spots at the school.
@lastone03 it’s great those graduates are getting jobs. It would be interesting to see where they are 5 or 10 years post-graduation and how Alabamians feel about it. 203 out of 305 full tuition scholarships going to Illinois residents seems really high.
P.S. I hope I didn’t ramble too much. I was typing this while watching the Masters.
@88jm19 “I’m not sure who you’re talking to, but I believe a lot, if not the majority of students like knowing they have been admitted by major.”
They do like being admitted to a major. What I am saying is that they can’t change majors easily within engineering. If you come in as a MechE, for example, and want to change to ChemE, you have to apply. Students can’t decide to change. That is a significant detractor. I am only talking about transfers within engineering, so any low stats kid never got into engineering or made it past the general freshman coursework.
Yes, I agree with you about the public perception of the directionals in IL. It is not good. In Michigan, people send their kids to directionals without hesitation. It is a different perception in IL.
Compounding the frustrated parents issue is the high percentage of engineering, CS and Business places that are being given to OOS and international students. That builds resentment, just like in CA. People feel like they paid taxes to support it and then the seat went to a non-resident student.
I see IL as an excellent Flagship that is stuck in a poorly managed state and doing what it has to in order to survive. Unfortunately, those decisions are not endearing them to the taxpayers who they continue to need support from.
All of this is bad for the long-term health of the state of IL.
Engineering majors that are “full” tend to be most common at large public universities that are in the upper range of selectivity. These universities have far more students capable of handling rigorous engineering curricula than the department have space for, and departments cannot expand and contract as quickly as student demand shifts.
The wealthiest private schools can afford to maintain extra capacity in popular departments (though even they sometimes have change-of-major limitations), smaller schools do not have enough students to overload their departments (who have to be sufficiently large to offer a quality undergraduate program), and less selective schools tend to have “natural attrition” as many weaker students decide that engineering is too difficult and change out (compare CSULA versus UCLA, for example).
@socaldad2002 I’m not sure how “very” important a 17 month stint at a bank would be. Seems like you made the wrong choice if you only hung around for just over a year. These are the very same internships/jobs that the elites covet and yet many are completely disillusioned right out of the gate.
Regarding internships, some colleges give some students a better opportunity. Close friend’s UC Berkeley kid got an internship at Hewlett Packard Enterprises (formerly HP) which helped her get into a top law school on full scholarship, which includes a paid internship every summer at one of the top law firms in the U.S. and almost guaranteed job offer upon graduation. For some colleges and some students, where you go to school most certainly helps your career.
Word
@88jm19, those numbers confused me too when an Illinois parent posted that article in a Bama parent Facebook group. Her interpretation was that 203 out of 305 Illinoians on scholarship were receiving full tuition.
To be clear, Alabamians are eligible for all those big merit awards at even lower thresholds than OOS students, and the state contributes very little to the overall university budget, so I don’t think there’s room for Alabamians to complain about anything but a lack of serious need-based aid for in-state students. Again, however, that comes back to a lack of state funding. They need to vote in new legislators.
UA did change the big merit awards this year, so it will be interesting to see if there’s a significant drop in students accepting the scholarships. NMF still get full tuition for five years, but the Presidential is a set amount of $25k a year for eight semesters.
I haven’t read every post, but (as is typical) I’m seeing a lot of anecdotes in this thread. A kid from a top-tier university does great after graduation, and it’s assumed it was all due to the prestige of the university, but truly talented students seem to excel wherever they go. I’ve seen Bama students headed to top law and medical schools, PhD programs, along with a lot of very in-demand employers. But they’re really just anecdotes too.
I do think it’s important to realize that if you pick up and go to another region for college, you may find yourself having to take your first job out of school in that region. At least that’s what I told my son to be prepared for when he took the money from Alabama and passed on Penn State at full pay. I know several Illinois families with recent UA grads - a few struggled to find jobs (the ones who returned to Chicago), some are headed to grad school (one of my son’s best friends is headed to Northwestern for PT school), and some got great job offers before they graduated. Few wanted to return to Chicago, however.
Why do some people think kids who go to top ranked colleges feel entitled or don’t work hard in their colleges? Not true. Most of them feel lucky to be there and work very hard to live up to their own expectations. Many of them are humbled at the brilliance and accomplishments of their peers and professors. They didn’t get there by not working hard — sure, they were lucky also — and they will continue to work just as hard, if not harder, as their counterparts at flagship state or HC schools.
My own kid who will be attending Stanford as a full pay is very, very appreciative of our support and willingness to pay when he could have attended a HC for almost free. I was concerned that our kid would feel too pressured to live up to the money spent on him, so that I tell him to relax and enjoy, and that we just want him to soak up the opportunities around him.
Why do some people think kids who DON’T go to top ranked colleges will have it easier and not have to work hard in their college to achieve excellence? Also not true. Many students going to lower ranked schools feel lucky to be there and work very hard to live up to their own expectations as well. They too are humbled and awed by the brilliance and accomplishments of their peers and professors. Just because they aren’t in an elite school doesn’t mean they didn’t work hard to get there. Elite school or not, doing well requires ongoing hard work on the part of the individual student AFTER admission. Elite school or not, a college education is a tremendous privilege and a gift and we should help young people feel that way no matter where they go to school.
Yes, I agree you should appreciate whatever you have. I just find an attempt to paint a hard working flagship state or HC students vs kids at top ranked colleges frolicking on grass kinda funny. There are hard working students everywhere and lazy ones. I was one of the lazy ones though but I still appreciated Cornell’s good food and libraries. Never worked hard in both HS and College. But made up for my laziness after school.
249 Amen!
LOL websensation. D1 frolicked on grass at Cornell and hopefully also worked hard. I remember one time when I visited her and we drove by the glass science library on a Saturday night, she said, “wow, I didn’t know people studied on Saturday night.” I said, “You think?!”
People need to stop judging each other’s choices.
If I could afford it AND my kid had been admitted to an elite school AND he’d wanted to go there, that’s where he’d be. But not getting admitted to any elites we could realistically afford, he’s made the most of his experience at Big OOS Flagship that offered him a lot of money, passing on higher-rated in-state flagship at full pay.
No regrets. And, honestly, if he (and we!) knew then what we all know now, senior year of HS might have been a lot less stressful.
Being able to attend an elite school is an absolute privilege (I know - I got to go to one), but so is being able to attend any decent four-year university and graduate with no debt. Make the most of life’s opportunities and don’t waste time diminishing the accomplishments of others. It’s a very sad way to live your life.
“People need to stop judging each other’s choices”
@ LucieTheLakie…Needs to stop…seems to be a sick aspect of human nature which makes it tiring reading all here.
" Make the most of life’s opportunities and don’t waste time diminishing the accomplishments of others. It’s a very sad way to live your life."
Most definitely. Don’t understand why so many keep putting others down regardless of where they go to college!? Maybe to boost their own self esteem or diminished sense of worth? Best to respect all education and people who are working their a**es off without judging or constantly criticizing!
@88jm19 I agree- you’d never know about the previous Illinois budget impasse by visiting UIUC. My son is a freshman in a beautiful brand new dorm, adjacent to another new all-suite dorm and third newer dorm with a very nice cafeteria complex. As you said, Green Street and the engineering campus have many renovated, newer and brand new buildings, like the Electrical Engineering building. More renovations are coming. We were told that the engineering school weathered decreasing state budget contributions not only by endowment and donation drives, but mainly by increased enrollment (resulting in larger class sizes). Also, I gather that the UI system of UIUC, Springfield and UIC is in a much better financial position than the other state schools (ISU/Northern/Southern/Eastern/Western/etc). We were told that if and when the crunch comes, the other state system will be shutting down before the UI system starts to make cutbacks, or so they said.
@Much2learn In regard to changing majors within engineering at UIUC, I understand it’s rarely an issue unless you are trying to get into an oversubscribed major. For example, CS, Bio and Mechanical are capped and will be difficult if you want to get into those particular programs. Other majors are usually not an issue if you meet any GPA requirements. My son’s biggest complaint is that there aren’t all that many students at his level, and he had 4 semesters of AP/juco credits and started in 200-400 level courses. I suspect that the top percentiles of students are right up there with those at similarly ranked private universities, but after that, I believe there is a big falloff in selectivity and therefore caliber of students at many state flagships, especially compared to the elite private schools. Some would say it’s better to be the big fish in the pond than a small fish among many, and hopefully that will be the case for him at UIUC.
Short term, I had no concerns about my son attending UIUC. Long term, the state has some serious budget issues. I don’t know if it will be in 5 years or 15 or 30, but bankruptcy, defaults and significantly reduced budgets are definitely on the horizon. I hope we can move out of state before then!
For my son, UIUC is highly regarded in his major and was by far the least expensive option for him at a top ten program. I think it will provide excellent job or grad school opportunities for him and there’s also excellent undergraduate research and tech internships around campus along with a huge variety of courses and highly renowned faculty in his area of interest. On the other hand, I have no doubt that a top tier program like Stanford, MIT or Princeton would open up even more doors. Not only in terms of prestige, but also in terms of referrals into top tier grad schools and networking with other top students who are more likely to be running startups and such. Is it a big enough difference to go into massive debt? Probably not. Even so, if cost is no object and all else is equal, I’d say on average the higher tier program is going to provide more opportunities in general.
As a side note, he’d have qualified for the Presidential Elite full ride and stipend with his scores at Alabama, but felt the the Engineering Physics, CS and math programs at UIUC are a tier above. With resident tuition and a modest merit scholarship, UIUC is affordable without debt, so he bucked the trend and didn’t even apply to Alabama. As a UIUC grad, I was fine with that choice. Plus, it’s a lot closer and most of his friends are there too. He’s excelling in his program, so perhaps hindsight is golden. I’m sure he would have done well at Alabama and saved us a bundle of money, but would Alabama really open all the same opportunities for jobs or grad school in these areas? Maybe.
Of course, there will always be great opportunities for top students at any school. If all else is roughly equal on paper, I’m thinking most hiring managers or grad school admissions would take someone from MIT/Stanford over UIUC, and UIUC over Alabama the vast majority of the time in an engineering or physics major? Discuss.
Anyway, every kid is different and you just pick the best option for your situation and don’t worry about what might have been at your dream school.
Sincerest apologies for wall of text ramble!
@illinoisx3 No one can can know the outcome of the the option not taken for any individual student, so in many ways these conversations are purely hypothetical and do not translate across student to student.
But, to answer the question about whether or not Bama would close doors to opportunities for top grad programs in absolute terms the answer is no. My ds is a sr at Bama and he and his close friends that are grad school bound are headed to top programs in their desired fields. My ds is a physics major. He was accepted to multiple top programs and was at accepted student weekends right alongside srs from Harvard/Stanford, etc. He ways accepted to and will be attending his top choice grad program in the fall.
Does that mean the any avg student from Bama will replicate his outcomes? No. But, equally, if you spend time on gradcafe, there are plenty of top UG institute students who are facing rejections and also didn’t replicate his outcome. Acceptances have to be based on far more than UG institution or he and his friends would have had very different outcomes. (One of his friends was accepted to multiple MSTP programs, including Harvard’s. MSTP programs often only accept single digit number of applicants.) The acceptances this group of kids received are not random outcomes but reflect high-energy, high-achieving students who have actively pursued every opportunity available to them.
Well that’s the real question- the opportunity for the best possible outcome for most students, rather than isolated examples. Is a Berkeley physics degree a better doorway to Stanford grad school or prime high tech research job in Silicon Valley than a degree from Alabama? I would think yes, in general, all else equal. I’d also guess that a Princeton grad has a better chance than a UIUC grad making it into Harvard physics grad school or into a high profile financial tech job on Wall Street, all else equal. Plenty of Alabama and UIUC grads have excellent outcomes, but I simply find it hard to believe that there is absolutely zero preference for schools known to be among the very best in a particular field when deciding among otherwise similar candidates.
Since you mention Harvard, I found this link some time back- https://www.physics.harvard.edu/academics/phds . I found UIUC listed twice. Alabama zero times. Princeton and Stanford were listed around 20 times each. UIUC is usually ranked as a top 10 or 15 physics program in the USA in most ratings you can find, even dubious ones. Dartmouth may not even be in the top 50 in some of them, yet the Harvard page lists 4 entries. Hardly scientific proof of preference, I know, but still interesting. Perhaps it just means 10x as many qualified Stanford/Princedon grads and 2x as many Dartmouth grads apply to Harvard grad school than UIUC grads, who knows. Or perhaps the Deans and CEOs making the decisions have their degrees from these elite schools and therefore have a bias, also a possibility,
Of course acceptances are based on far more than undergrad institution. GPA, GRE and referrals from research projects are all critical. But when it comes to a small set of relatively similar applications as finalists for a job or grad school, does an MIT degree set someone apart from a state flagship that isn’t Berkeley or Michigan? Maybe you’re right and it doesn’t matter, but I still find that difficult to accept over a very large sample size of applicants.
I hope you’re right, though, because based on his freshman year, my son will be at the top of his class at UIUC looking for employment or grad school in a few years. At the very least he will be debt free, which wouldn’t have been the case had he chosen a private elite school.
@LucieTheLakie Best post. No need to criticize people who partly go to certain school for the prestige when they can afford it, and no need to criticize people who go to a school that gives a lot of merit money even when they can afford full pay. My kid feels absolutely no guilt that certain kids at his HS with higher hard stats did not get into Stanford but he did because all of them ended up at great OOS state school with lots of merit money. In all likelihood, these kids will probably get into higher ranked graduate schools than my kid in future anyway. Like I said, it wasn’t that he was a better student than other kids but I really believe he crafted a better application that managed to move the adcom in some way. Even though my kid didn’t always get top grades in his classes, he always managed to do extremely well in class projects and presentations. Definitely not a top kid gpa and test score wise, but one of top kids in getting friendly with his counselor and teachers who wrote LORs. We encouraged him to buy coffee and drop by his favorite teachers after classes and to chat and find out what were their concerns when they were his age. These after classes chats really gave opportunities for them to get to know each other better.