@YoungOne4 My anecdotal evidence is not from the past, but a current college sr. Our ds attends a less than top 100 school and has been accepted into 2 of the top theoretical cosmology programs in the country. He says the other students at the invited weekends have been from top schools AND a mixture of lower ranked schools. We are not talking about huge numbers of students at these weekends, so students from lower ranked schools are being accepted into top grad programs.
But…and this is the huge but…we also know a student who was also accepted into these same programs who currently attends a top school. Her CV/research background/PHysics GRE score, etc are not on par with ds’s. We have no doubt that if his accomplishments were lesser than they are and more avg that he would not have been considered coming from his school.
But our kids’ experiences have been very much like what @itsgettingreal17 stated in post 75. Almost exactly. Different schools in different states, but fabulous opportunities.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek Re your second paragraph, are you saying that the student from the top school has higher stats or lower stats? And are you saying that but for your S working his tail off and reaching great heights in his stats, his school name alone would have held him back>
@cbreeze She’s giving serious thought to consulting, investment banking, and accounting. And the first two are very possible from her top 100 school. I’m not speculating. It’s fact. All the companies that CC users drool about and believe only recruit at elite schools recruit the top students on her campus. She’s a freshman and has already had serious face time with recruiters from McKinsey, Bain, Goldman, the Big 4 and more. She’ll graduate with 3 majors (2 degrees), a minor, and a masters degree - in 4 years, including multiple study abroad programs. All for free.
@youngone4 I’m not sure stats is the right way to categorize it bc grad school apps are slightly different than UG, but ds has more research experience, a much higher physics GRE score, multiple grad level courses, etc. The other student is also an excellent student, so please don’t misinterpret what I am trying to say. However, if you just looked at things as a list, the lists are not similar. And coming from his school, his application would have not stood out if his list had been similar to hers and, yes, more than likely his school would have kept him from being accepted simply bc nothing would have stood out as excelling (I would guess this is where that elite UG admissions filter probably comes into play.)
Fwiw, I also wouldn’t say my ds worked his tail off. He worked hard, but he simply did what he has always done. It is just who he is. His number 1 criteria in selecting his UG school (beyond being affordable bc that is what drives our family’s filter) was access to UG research. He wanted to participate in research bc that is the air he breathes. His courses were simply the next in sequence bc he graduated from high school having already completed 5 physics and 5 math in major courses.
I guess that is the point, though. Ds could have excelled at a higher ranked school, but we couldn’t afford one. He just continued to be himself at the lower ranked school which equally meant he excelled. If he had been an avg student, he wouldn’t have been able to accomplish what he did at his lower ranked school. That would have made him more of just an avg student there and just being avg doesn’t get you accepted into top programs.
Clear as mud? Sorry. I can’t think of how to articulate my thoughts. It is obvious to me, though, that while one the one hand I don’t believe school name really matters bc what they accomplish is what really matters, on the other hand, they do need to stand out as not being just an avg student.
I pulled this data from the links above. While I agree that a student from anywhere has a shot, it appears that Harvard, Stanford, and Penn each admit their own grads first, and then admit big numbers from each other.
Harvard Business School top feeders: Harvard, Stanford, Penn, Yale and Columbia.
Stanford’s top feeders: Stanford, Penn, Yale, Harvard and Virginia.
Wharton top feeders: Penn, Harvard, Princeton, Yale, Georgetown, and Stanford
It also looks like the 8 Ivies plus Stanford make up almost 1/2 of Penn’s domestic admits.
All of that suggests to me that Harvard, Stanford, and Penn are all giving some preference to an elite undergrad.
I have recruited on behalf of my company (banking, insurance, technology), and we normally wouldn’t offer internship until junior year, some companies may do it as early as sophomore summer. It is rare for companies to meet with freshmen.
D1 is responsible for her bank’s associate/analyst program. Her firm only recruit on campus of few targeted schools for their front office positions. They offer very limited sophomore internships.
@itsgettingreal17 “She’s giving serious thought to consulting, investment banking, and accounting. And the first two are very possible from her top 100 school. I’m not speculating. It’s fact. All the companies that CC users drool about and believe only recruit at elite schools recruit the top students on her campus. She’s a freshman and has already had serious face time with recruiters from McKinsey, Bain, Goldman, the Big 4 and more. She’ll graduate with 3 majors (2 degrees), a minor, and a masters degree - in 4 years, including multiple study abroad programs. All for free.”
I absolutely believe you. Those firms do not only get students from elite programs. There is no question that students from a top 100 school can and do pull it off. Especially, if that student would have stood out even at an Ivy. That student has a real chance to pull it off, but they need to have found a way to stand out.
One more comment on that Wharton admit analysis. Penn admitted more students to Wharton that year from just three schools, Penn, Harvard, and Princeton, than they admitted from all of the public universities in the US combined. That definitely suggests that there is a premium on certain brands. Yes, it can be done from anywhere, but it appears to be a bit harder.
What we need to stop telling kids is that their self worth is defined by the ranking or selectivity of the school they attend. Even if we aren’t saying it explicitly, so many things that we as a society and as parents do convey that message. When someone says their son goes to Harvard and we say, “WOW” in front of our own kids, but don’t say that about the big state school, we are conveying that message. Article after article and countless news stories detailing the scramble to get into the few top schools conveys that message.
There is very little that is more stressful then being made responsible for something you have no control over. Once upon a time, kids with great grades could get into great schools and many more families could afford to make that happen. None of that is true today. Our kids may have some control over their grades and extra curriculars, but they have no control over whether they will be accepted into one of the top schools. Despite this, they are still made to feel as if somehow a rejection is their failure.
We, as parents, need to do the counter programming. We need to teach them to work hard and excel because its an important life skill, necessary for all that they want to accomplish in life. But we need to uncouple it from the expectation that it will bring them a specific college experience. We have to teach them that they can do all within their power and still not get what they want and it isn’t their fault.
Post after post on here from disappointed high school kids proves that we need to change the narrative. Kids with incredible accomplishments keep posting wondering what they did wrong. It isn’t fair to them.
@itsgettingreal17 - It’s great that she’s getting exposure to major firms, but your post highlights your limited understanding of those firms.
The sheer size of those organizations requires them to find schools with critical mass. The more students / interns they can source per day the better. They are looking for thousands of students per year, but not all students are funneled into the same opportunities.
The majority of recruits are for operational and financial analyst positions. Good salaries at a good firm, but in roles that have very large spans of control and steep climbs to executive management. This is 80% of these firms. Grads will make $40k to $70k based on role and location. They usually all make the same money in the same office. Good jobs for grads, but these are the jobs I suspect will become fewer and farther between soon.
The real investment / revenue side of these firms are a much smaller group: very selective recruiting, very highly compensated. These are the kids making $500k/year at 27. They are primarily from the Ivy League and a handful of highly selective schools.
The return on a $250k education for a good student like your daughter could be tens of millions of dollars. It is possible that she navigates her way to the top, but you should appreciate she is likely starting out playing A ball, while the highly selective kids are playing AAA or riding the bench in the majors.
@gallentjill I agree. We talk more about making a good effort in our home, and not so much about grades. (Unless they have an 89.9% with two weeks to go in the class. Then we do talk about grades.)
@EyeVeee I see no one will ever convince you otherwise. Keep believing you need to spend $250k for your kid to have a successful career or that it will guarantee tens of millions in income.
@EyeVeee is correct. The top banking jobs only hire from top schools. Maybe @itsgettingreal17 is correct that those places held information sessions on-campus for more back office oriented roles, but banks fill their top groups from a select group of schools.
@itsgettingreal17
It seems to me that you are talking about what is possible, and most other posters are talking about what happens most often. I am not sure that those things are in conflict.
If you are exceptional student and motivated, you will do well in any college — just a common sense— but if you were a lazy student academically like me on a full ride, an Ivy degree did help me.
I haven’t finished reading all 7 pages, but I wanted to echo the above from @rickle1 post #12.
I have read many posts from people claiming to work along side with graduates of MIT, Stanford etc and it is what you know about your work that matters.
I am in the process of helping my kid to decide on her college, one lower ranking and one higher ranking but 140K more expensive. I am tempted to steer her to the lower ranking school as many on CC suggested not to go into debt (I don’t have to go into debt). However, I was a hiring manager more than a decade ago and had hired entry level IT staff members, I cannot go over the fact that resumes from the lower ranking school would never come to my desk. We are not taking about 20, 30 resumes, I just did not have the time to interview everyone. Yes, it may be different after they have the experience. but it is difficult to get a foot in the door for some industries.
I have told my kid the above too and will let her decide.
“whether you go to an elite private college or a less- selective public university”
I think it’s time to stop referring to public universities in a negative light. I wish the article said “less-selective school” instead of “public university”…but that’s my issue to deal with. As the parent of a very successful daughter who attends an amazing public university, this type of talk always makes me cringe… no matter how harmless.
@annamom - That’s why I consistently say, if you can do it, do it, and if you can’t don’t. Pretty simple. By doing it I mean not going in to major debt, not dramatically changing your lifestyle, not using all your resources on kiddo 1 with more following, etc.
Yes it costs more, a lot more actually. I think a lot of folks are hell bent on not spending that for the sake of not spending that. I get it. It’s an emotional issue. It’s not just numbers on a page.But again, if you can get through the college funding period unscathed (albeit with less but still enough), why wouldn’t you? I view it as a great use of that money. It’s why I saved it.