This is not a rhetorical question. I think it is fairly well established that for a few select careers, specifically IB and consulting, where you attend makes a significant difference. How much of this is a legacy of the fact that for most of our history the really high achieving kids had little difficulty in getting into the the top schools? There was a certain implication, (whether justified or not) that if you didn’t go to a top school, you were not a top candidate. However, it is abundantly clear that that is no longer the case. You only have to scan the threads here about ridiculously high achieving students being shut out of all the top schools, to see that things have changed. Do you think that as these kids start to be spread through a wider range of schools, the recruiting will follow? Will hiring managers even at the top firms realize that they are missing out on a huge talent pool or will they stick with the same 10 schools regardless?
@itsgettingreal17 - I’m past the point of cost / benefit analysis. CC isn’t going to convince me on prior decisions: my feedback comes from my family who have attended all types of schools: Ivy, selective LAC, less selective private schools, state flagship, and community colleges.
It’s great that your daughter is having conversations about opportunities. It’s great that she is having them for free. You’re happy. Everyone wins.
As I said in post #67, i believe the number of stable careers available to future graduates is shrinking, and I feel strongly that the when you have a few decades of employees who lived through the current escalation of selectivity, the value of selective education will increase.
I would suggest you advise your daughter not look at companies, as much as focus on the work being offered. We live in a time where names bring immediate reactions, often used embellish personal value assumptions we know others are making. If I told you my kids were working at Starbucks and Google, you’d think barista and tech. The reality could be VC at Starbucks and call center rep at Google.
I am skeptical and pessimistic about work in the future. I know too many people who got to 40 or 50 and have no career path due to globalization, automation, and a host of other reasons. Noboby knows what the world will look like in 20 or 30 years, but I can’t imagine that the brand value around education will decrease as the world invests the time to understand the subtle differences of educational opportunities.
Isn’t it possible that this actually swings the other way? As today’s high achieving students are increasingly shut out of the most selective schools, they will be more open to casting a wider net when they, in turn, are making hiring decisions?
@gallentjill They already do. Despite the protestations otherwise in this thread, I am confident that students like @itsgettingreal17’s Dd are achieving exactly what she describes. I followed @itsgettingreal17’s Dd application process last yr bc we were both part of the parents of the class of 2017 thread. Her Dd received numerous outstanding offers. Posters cannot compare the middle of the pack students at large Us with students at elite schools if they want to have a real conversation. Middle of the pack kids wouldn’t have been accepted to elites. The real conversation is what happens with top students at non-elites bc those are the kids that are equally high achievers as students who are accepted to and attend elite schools.
For example, @itsgettingreal17’s Dd is a Foundation Fellow at UGA. (Only a handful of students selected per yr.)
Sorry, but these schools and programs really invest in these kids and have excellent contacts in all realms of the post UG world. When she describes what her Dd is doing, there is not a single doubt in my mind that her Dd is doing exactly that. And, no, it isn’t for some podunk, lowly roles that are the leftovers for non-elite school grads.
My kids have participated in similar programs at other schools. My Dd recently attended a reunion dinner with former alumni of her program. She said they have gone on to amazing careers. (But she already knew that from when she talked to srs last yr about what their plans were for this yr. She heard about job offers and grad school acceptances that were not “lesser than” bc of not attending an elite school. They had the resources of the program, the faculty mentors, etc behind them.)
But, there is no pt arguing with closed opinions that argue no matter what it isn’t possible. But, for those of us with kids doing it, we know it is. So for people with highly motivated students who think their futures are over bc they won’t be attending an elite school, affirm to them that great success can definitely be achieved outside elite UG institutions.
@EyeVeee If you think the name on your kids’ undergrad degree is going to guarantee that their careers don’t go off the rails in 20 or 30 years then you have another think coming. At 20 years out, undergrad degree should be at the very back of the resume. Skills, accomplishments, personal attributes, and contacts will be the only drivers of success. Fortunately for my D, she understands that. I’m done with this conversation since what you took from my posts is a focus on particular companies.
@gallentjill - I guess anythings possible, but I can’t see why wider nets are necessary in the future? The number of “good” jobs / careers is shrinking. There are still large firms (primarily consulting and financial services) that have large appetites for grads, but even those firms no longer provide the long term opportunities they once did.
If a current grad is surprised when they are shut out of the Ivies and attends a large flagship instead, do you then think they’re going to hire from the pool they were in, or they one they wanted to be in? If you have limited time, a hiring function run by computers and algorithms, and need less people, the easiest way to thin the herd is by attributes. The more select the education, the more likely it is to be of value in the future (IMO).
@EyeVeee I think where they will hire from depends a great deal on what kind of experience they had in college. Successful grads seem to show a great deal of loyalty to their alma maters. My D1 is having having a lot of success making contacts through her school’s alumni network. I have a hard time imagining that most people will want to reward the schools that shuned them. It may be petty, but when I see a resume from the school that rejected me, my first thought is not, “great! lets hire that guy.” Of course, I try very hard not to let that cloud my judgement.
Exceptional students will be exceptional students at whatever college. I haven’t read Malcolm Gladwell’s book, but if that’s the thesis of the book, I have no dispute. Also, if my kid wanted to go to HC with a great merit money over Stanford or Harvard, I would have told my kid “go for it and create your own trail”. As it was, my kid wanted to go to Stanford, and so did my wife; and I was thankful that I had enough money to do something for my loved ones. I also was fine with my kid’s choice to attend Stanford over $30k cheaper Berkeley. I would have strongly advised my kid to go to HC over UC Irvine or UCSD though and maybe even over UCLA/Berkeley. But again, my kid is not a STEM kid or a pre-med, and I am glad.
I do think we should be respectful of each family’s financial situation, values and choices.
I will say this though. The fact that he got into Stanford might have helped my kid get one prestigious study abroad scholarship (my value calculation shows $60k value) and one paid summer internship after HS (he earned $1,200 during 6 weeks but he Learned a lot). Can’t say for sure he would not have gotten these two without having been admitted to Stanford, but from the way things worked out, I do feel it played a role.
I work for a Fortune 500 and my company heavily invests in college recruiting for interns in all departments. I run an IT department and I’ve been involved in selecting interns. The least important item on the resume is the school the applicant attends. What I’m looking for is the interesting things they have done at school. Do they lead any student organizations? Did they work on an innovative project during one of their classes? Are they juggling work and school at the same time and still maintaining that high GPA? These are FAR more important things than the school they are attending.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek what are the examples of top firms hiring outside of elite schools? Truly top firms certainly only look at a few schools, and even the generic good firms like Goldman only hire from a small list of schools for their desirable positions.
@elodyCOH very very few people at top schools want to join a F500 company out of school.
@NashSaddle plenty of kids would love to go to work for Fortune 500’s like Apple, AT&T, Exxon, Amazon, GE, Microsoft, J&J, P&G, Pepsi and Disney.
@Mom2aphysicsgeek 's post #103 gives me great hope, esp. the part about the networking and mentoring program. My state flagship honors program years ago didn’t have that component, and I left college with a great education but no idea where to start on any kind of career path other than going to grad school. I didn’t come from a family that had any idea how to advise me about how to enter any kind of professional career, nor the funds to hold me over until I could get on my feet. In short, I think that the missing piece of this discussion is the social capital that the student gets from his or her parents–you know, those esoteric things like knowing how to interact with a professional (because your parents are professionals and all their friends are professionals) that will have a big impact on whether or not they know how to use the resources that might be available to them. In today’s climate, that even includes being allowed to live at home rent free after college, often for years. Not everyone can do that. For my less privileged students, I encourage them to go for the prestige degree because I do think–perhaps erroneously–that the big name degree will open some doors for them. So, yes, the kids of CC posters will do extremely well wherever they go, no doubt, because they have all sorts of support and guidance. It’s the less “in the know” students that I think get the most boost from a more prestigious college.
@itsgettingreal17 and @Mom2aphysicsgeek your particular student’s success is not going to be hindered by not attending an elite school because of the specific programs they are involved with…they may as well be attending the elite school, because the experience they are having at State U is not the experience that 97% of the rest of their classmates are having and neither of you stated that upfront in your initial posts! Arguing that every student at State U has just as much opportunity is ludicrous, it is not true. (Yes, there are a small percentage of average students at State U that will go on to great things, just as there are a small number of students at an elite school that will fail to capitalize on the benefits of their education, that is common sense. Yes, opportunities abound for students at all levels of universities). The fact that your students are part of elite programs is what is going to come in across when they are applying for interships, post graduate education or entry level careers, not that they attended State U, they are not even playing in the same ball park as the rest of State U students (to characterize them as such rings false). I think even @EyeVeee can agree to that!
My goal, as a parent, with second generation college students, is for my kids to be happy, to launch successfully and get off my payroll. I would like them to be affluent enough to live in the manner to which they have become accustomed and to possibly move up the ladder of success a rung or possibly two (not 10 rungs!) I have not defined what success is for them, that is personal. One may say it is earning $500k annually, another might say it is instilling a love of learning in a 1st grader as a teacher. My students do not have to attend an elite school to accomplish those goals.
As for the original article - It does matter, to a certain extent, under varying circumstances, where you go to college. You are fooling yourself and doing a disservice to your student by pretending otherwise (and of course there are always exceptions to the rule, there is no need to quibble about that!). So, as long as admissions is tied to stats and if it matters to you where you want to attend school; earning a good grade and scoring well on standardized test matters. However, your self-worth and the worth of anyone else should in no way be tied to where anyone is accepted, attends or graduates. Let’s stop conflating issues.
@lastone03 no they don’t. Some tech roles are very lucrative (Google, Facebook, Microsoft) but generally F500 companies have no pull. People want to join the F500 later in more significant roles if they choose to pursue a corporate route. It’s part of the reason consulting is so popular.
@lastone03 My 11th grader daughter who attends a prep school on almost 90% aid interviewed at mutiple of these companies, got job offers at these company as a 11th grader working this summer at one of the company. Pay is very good. But what they have told her that she needs to take even higher level math classes beyond BC calculus in high school, which she will be taking.
@elodyCOH Hoping that some school will offer her a need based scholarship to attend college. She currently maintains a 3.96 GPA in five AP courses at a elite boarding sxhool. I am hoping that school will forgive her need for need based aid and look at her drive to work in the cutting edge world of computer science lab.
@elodyCOH and that is why you don’t get applicants from elite schools, they are going to top 10 companies, not top 500.
However when you are recruiting from public schools your method is the way most companies do it.
@NashSaddle you have a very broad brush. And a very tiny scope.
@labegg Nowhere did I say that every student at a non-elite school will have the same opportunities. I don’t see where @Mom2aphysicsgeek said anything to that effect either nor did either of us try to hide the fact that our kids are in special programs.
And I’m truly baffled by the obsession of some parents on 2 select careers that a very minuscule number of students even aspire to. Notably, everyone seems to assume that just because a student aspires to work in those two fields and attends an elite school that they will land one of those coveted positions. They won’t. The competition is stiff for those positions even at those elite schools. Your child is guaranteed nothing.
This conversation just keeps morphing because of what I perceive to be a very defensive reaction from those who are full pay at elite schools and who want to believe that they are buying an experience and opportunities that are only available to their kids and other students at similar schools. Well the fact remains that it isn’t so. We’re going in circles at this point. If you want to believe that success is limited by where your student goes to school, please continue to believe that. Nothing I or anyone else says will change your mind if that is your thinking.
@CU123 Are you for real?! Do you really think all elite school graduates go to top 10 companies? That is so misinformed. Sad really.