@NashSaddle Your argument is a moving target and based on a whole lot of speculation. Don’t stop believin’.
This is an interesting perspective. I think what matters most is internal drive, motivation, and dedication. With that, on can accomplish anything. Best of luck to all you seniors out there!
Meaning your college’s prestige is a reflection of how well you did in high school (and your parents’ financial situation relative to cost and financial aid)?
Grade inflation or lack thereof may not necessarily be connected with course and curriculum difficulty. Caltech and Harvey Mudd have famously difficult courses and curricula, for example.
Like this:
@itsgettingreal17 What’s the moving target? What’s the speculation? Look at LinkedIn and see who works in the good groups at top firms. You don’t even have an argument. You take vague shots at me without ever saying anything of substance.
The reason this thread goes on and on is that everyone is partially correct. It does matter where you go to school (as Northwesty points out #151), but it shouldn’t be perceived as a guarantee of anything (in or out). There are millions of happy successful people that didn’t go to college, so the likelihood that folks at competitive flagship schools will be as happy is pretty high.
All of the statistics in the world won’t tell you what’s right for your child or your family. Pointing to the schools that “successful” people attended 30 years ago won’t tell you which schools will produce “success” in 30 more years.
People skills, some life experience, a little bit of knowledge, and a name for your resume are all you get for your college money.
So the wheel keeps spinning…and mostly parents argue to justify their decisions. If their children go to an Ivy, it’s worth every penny. If they go to a flagship, the parents who spend their money on private education are fools. The only thing that really matters is what’s best for the individual child, and every single situation is different. It mostly comes down to parenting, and at some level being able to tell your kids the truth about their options for college.
@mangiamio2020 - Use brackets… [ ] text… [/] inside of the brackets, enter “quote” or “b” for bold or “I” for “Italics”
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@mangiamio2020 If cost were no object, I would want my child to get the best education possible. But that doesn’t necessarily mean the most prestigious university possible. Depending on my child’s needs, personality, and interests, that school might be a lesser known LAC or an IVY university. Knowing my own children, I can imagine that one or two of the 10 ten schools would be a good fit, but certainly not all of them. If money were no object and she had perfect scores and perfect stats, I would still not have her apply to every IVY and every single digit admit school. I am always wary of people conflating “best” with “prestige.” They are often not synonymous.
@EyeVeee Personally, I don’t think that people who spend their money on education are fools.
Equally, I know that my ds will be in grad school with Harvard grads. (Thank goodness his parents lack of $$ to pay for an elite education didn’t prevent him from succeeding via his own academic strengths.)
It shouldn’t be about this way is right or better and that way is wrong or lesser. The discussion should be that different paths can and do lead to the similar outcomes even if the journey there is quite different.
My D was accepted to a highly selective research program last summer with students from UVA, Johns Hopkins and Duke… and also with kids from Rutgers and “regular” state schools.
They all got into this program based on their resume, leadership roles, previous experiences, strong letters of recommendation, interview etc.
There are smart, driven, successful kids at all schools. The kid who gets into Hopkins but attends Rutgers … either by his/her choice or due to finances… has the ability to rock it and have a very different experience than the kid who gets into Rutgers as a reach. Different students, different experiences.
I have no problem with people spending money on selective schools. We are doing that… although it’s a public school and it is not the highest ranking school out there ( she turned down some of those offers). What I have an issue with are people who think you need such schools to be successful. There are many reasons why students choose their school…
I strongly disagree with the following viewpoints:
- That going to prestigious school itself is more important for financial success than the person’s character or ability. There are going to be exceptions though.
- That on the average, kids going to university of XX are just as smart as kids going to top 10 ranked schools.
I agree that:
- 10% or 20% (not sure) of kids at state school could do better academically or just as well as kids at HYPSM.
- I also agree many, not all, kids at HCs of these state schools have just as good hard stats as kids at HYPSM. They are just as capable. This means kids who do very well at HCs will absolutely be at some top graduate schools along with kids who graduated from HYPSM.
- For some kids HYPSM is not a good fit.
@websensation I think an overwhelming % of kids from UM, UVA, UNC, UCLA etc could compete with those attending the top 10. There are many, many students that get shut out of those top schools with equal stats. And the reason they get shut out is purely due to class size constraints or because they weren’t connected enough.
@lastone03 - There is no doubt thousands of kids could “stand up pretty well” at elite schools, but thats an answer to the wrong question.
The question is: should they care about the chance of going someplace that is ** perceived** to be better?
I think the consensus would be: if the student feels like the school is a good fit for them, then there is no downside to being at the “elite” school. That said, there are a ton of reasons why it might not make sense: location, size, area of interest, finances, etc.
This conversation is an Easter egg hunt. Do you try to outrun the kids around you? Do you run for an open area and hope for success? Do you use your size to block out the little kids? When all the eggs are collected, the parents talk about how great their kids did collecting eggs, how some of the kids used unfair advantages, and how other parents don’t care about how successful their kids were, so long as they know they’re loved.
Meanwhile, the kids don’t eat the eggs…they sit off to the side texting one another about how they can’t wait until they don’t have to do this stupid Easter Egg hunt.
Since I don’t have any data, I am just posting my personal opinion. I think the public colleges you mentioned are among the top public colleges. But I would not say “overwhelming %” – don’t know what percentage that is – from my observation. Top colleges tend to pick the students who are not just good across the board but REALLY good in one field they intend to pursue. So I have to respectfully disagree.
@EyeVeee Should they care? Hmmm. I don’t know. I know I don’t care. I am more concerned with the complete experience, not the perception, but that’s just me. My response to @websensation merely meant that the Ivy’s and top 10 (Nat U’s and LAC’s) are but a fraction of the 3.6MM kids that will be a part of the class of 2018. I cannot believe that at least 5% (minimum) of those 3.6MM students are not statistically in the same ball park. And a lot of those super smart kids, that were rejected or opted out of those top schools, are attending the “University of XYZ” (as he called it). That’s all I am saying.
Maybe, a quarter of the kids who get admitted to Ivies are there because they fall in the genius bucket. The rest are there because they’re smart, but not brilliant kids who fill some other institutional need: legacy, URM, athlete, donor, oboe player, or they get lucky and their Costco essay resonates with the adcoms for whatever reason.
@lastone03 is spot on.
The total number of students form the HS class of 2018 who will matriculate at one of the elites (Ivy+) is about 20k. That is less than 0.6%.of 3.5M. So, even if you assume all of them are super smart and if you also assume that the top 5% of any class are equally smart, then about 154,000 of super smart students are going to attend a non Ivy+ school. Put another way - there are 8x more super smart students attending a non Ivy+ than there are attending one.
for what its worth, IMHO I do believe a top elite school will/should help a grad with that first job but after that its largely
performance, and who you know. Now, having said that, our child chose to attend TCNJ and turned down several NESCAC schools. He will graduate debt free. He has been a very focused hard working student and has the grades to go along with that. I am here to confirm he has been offered three separate IB opportunities (two of which he turned down). Same programs and internships that the elite schools produced. So its entirely what the student makes of their opportunity at any school IMHO. I will say , he might of needed the higher grades and extensive resume more than maybe the Elite school child. But it ends up in the same place anyway and now more $$$'s for grad school.
@stones3 Congrats to your son! Many on here won’t believe you, because they believe it’s impossible from all but certain elite schools. And if a student at a non-elite school does get an offer, it’ll be for opportunities that students at elite schools do not want. Thanks for sharing and best wishes to your son.
At the end of the day, where you go is not who you’ll be is unassailable truth.
I have been avoiding this thread, but I will say our family makes more than $250K on a single income and both my husband and I graduated from state flagship in the Midwest. We’ve never been unemployed or underemployed. We both graduated without student debt. My husband hires in tech (and I have in the past) in the Midwest and program rigor is definitely noted for new grads. But private schools do not rank over public in this regard necessarily. I will say some privates have a less than positive rep for new grads in hiring at several local companies. And once an employee has a background and some experience, that will tends to override college.
Graduating without debt gave us the power to travel the world and take some offbeat start up jobs that resulted in great rewards.
Actually I could say because we chose as we did, we are able to look broader at colleges for our own kids. But with a practical eye. If you have the money to attend a high buck school or qualify for good financial aid, that is fabulous. Enjoy. But I am not going to be convinced you can’t do well not choosing a more prestigious school when I’m surrounded by very successful people who did just that. Might your life path look different? Might you be afforded some different opportunities? Sure. And I have a Midwest perspective, which I am quite sure from an upper middle class east coast perspective.
I really would like to see the narrative change. Highly motivated, high stat kids have power. They can fly many places. I would also like to see public schools making sure they have affordable post secondary options for students at all levels including the highest fliers. I’m making sure my junior knows that the world is his oyster regardless of the name of the college he matriculates at.
I’ll add my take on the article…my usual talk to my own teens includes “it’s not necessarily where you go, but where you finish and more importantly that you do finish and also what you do with it.” I also tell them it’s ok to not know what you want to major in right away. I started at one school (Marymount University) and then transferred to JMU, then I changed majors. Did summer school at NVCC to ensure that I graduated in 4 years…with an B.A. in English (and minor in Biology)…worked for a year or so after graduating (my father died same year I graduated so I floundered a bit). Then heard about this fairly new profession from a family friend called Legal Assistant/Paralegal and off to Georgetown Univ. for their Paralegal Certificate Program. I’m now a very successful corporate paralegal with a very happy work/life balance and enjoy what I do and who I work with. That is all I hope for with my own teens…a chance to attend college and find a successful career where they can make what they want of it. I agree with many prior posts in that college IMHO is more a life experience and a chance to learn what you might want to do with your life.
My brother and I (along with most of my cousins) were the first generation to even go to college so I know the value of having a college education. My parents came to the U.S. to give us a better life and that included a college education with no student debt. I expect no less for my own kids. But I also have twins who are on the more average side in terms of stats and one with an IEP. Even if they were accepted into an Ivy, we simply could not afford it and I would rather they go to a state school and have no student debt. There is much they can do once they get the standard 4-year college education…go on for a Master’s, PhD, law school or even just a paralegal certificate…they have a key benefit that I did not have…access to CC and the internet that offers a vast amount of information and a mother able to help guide them along the way.