There are no question in my mind that there are more number (vastly more) of smart kids at the level of top 10 schools attending non-Ivy+ schools than attending Ivy+ schools. I did not say otherwise. What I said is I believe that as an example, on the average MIT students are academically smarter than students at let’s say an average state school; and moreover, top 10% kids at University of XX type of state university can compete at MIT. Put it other way, a kid who gets admitted to MIT will probably be in top 10% at University of XX. That’s my opinion. Nothing more, nothing less. Since it’s hard to compare different majors, you have to compare students in the same major, i.e., Electrical Engineering majors at MIT vs. Electrical Engineering majors at University of XX.
thanks, it’s totally possible. In fact , two top companies told him specifically " they have had really good experience with TCNJ grads, they tend to work harder and are more prepared than their counterparts from several ivys" I know it might go against conventional wisdom, but its a fact.
Yes, except some Ivy kids don’t rest on their laurels and are just as hard working. I myself did not look at schools or GPA when hiring. I just gave everyone I hired 3 months of paid internship period so I can see their abilities. This was because I myself had lousy grades at schools because I could not get motivated at schools but in the real Business world, I was very motivated.
I’m not sure I agree with that statement. It does matter to some degree.
I’d rephrase the statement into “It’s time to tell your kids you can be successful, in your own definition, regardless of where you go to school.” I do believe that you get somewhat of a bump into top professional school admission hopes depending on what school you went to undergrad. Of the kids that applied to a law school from the UChicago class of 2017, 84% were accepted at a T14 law school.
I think historically you may have been correct. But as acceptance rates dropped, the classes admitted to the top schools have become better. Schools are looking more at essays, recommendations, and outside activities in addition to academic stats. I do understand that more CEOs come out of the University of Wisconsin then do out of Harvard, but I don’t think that will be the case in 30 years because of the shift in admissions practices at the CHYMPS schools.
However, I don’t think kids should be destroyed emotionally if they don’t make it in to the tippy top schools. They need to realize that they can still be successful if they go to any school. I am the son of two factory workers who could only afford to go to a regional campus of a state land grant university. I graduated 25 years ago while working full-time and going to school part time. I was able to work my way up the corporate ladder to a position that is pretty high in a Fortune 500 company (top 200 leaders of the company at the Vice President level). The school doesn’t make the person, the person uses the undergraduate experience to provide them with tools to be successful.
College not even necessary for many trades if you have training and a valuable skill. However, in jobs where college is required, it matters some but not as much as many think. It will definitely open doors, but mainly for that “first job”. What you do in college and at the job to prove yourself much more important with solid work ethic, passion, perseverance, positive attitude, adaptability, people skills, and so on coming in to play. Stephen Spielberg was rejected at both UCLA and USC Film School due to lower GPA. So he attended Cal State Long Beach and did just fine!
This thread makes me a bit sad. While I’m sure there’s a small percentage of people who are happy in the dog eat dog world, I believe that’s not the case for many. Perpetuating the idea that money and prestige brings happiness is doing a disservice to our youth. It starts with the preschool-age overscheduling of activities. Parents who only see (and parent) their kids from 6 pm to 6a five or six days a week all in the name of a new Range Rover or piano classes for their 6 year old. Why the piano classes? Because it increases their chances of going IVY 10 years down the road. I could go on and on but you are all smart people here on CC.
Work to Live not Live to Work. We need to start raising kids that see the value in hard work regardless of the outcome, because in reality if you work hard you have a great chance of accomplishing whatever makes you tick. College isn’t for everyone and certainly prestigious colleges which are becoming more and more only for the connected and wealthy, unless you are a genius.
Agree with @Fisherman99 work ethic, passion, adaptability and perseverance is what brings success, but more importantly brings success AND happiness.
Disclaimer - I have read much of this thread but not all.
First, while I love the sentiment of the article, it presents as fact what is really opinion - and necessarily so, as “success” is subjective and in the eye of the beholder. Is success a modest income with good health, lots of free time, a large, loving family and many friends? Sure, that can be the ultimate goal and perhaps it should be. But the truth of the matter is that success is often viewed in monetary terms and there is some rationale behind why that is the case: wealth can buy leisure time (more time because you can pay people to do your menial chores such as cleaning, yard work, etc), freedom (you can change jobs on a whim or relocate if it suits you), health (by having the money to pay for the best doctors, better insurance plans, quality nursing homes, higher quality food, better comfort in times of crisis), philanthropy (having the means to donate to causes or spend time volunteering) and enrichment/entertainment (having the money to travel, see the world, experience culture, study language or art or cooking for fun, etc). .
Can you be a raging success with poor grades and community college? Of course - nothing is ever absolute - but your odds of a better career/job which, odds are, brings more wealth (which, in turn, buys freedom, health, experience, etc) are far greater with high grades and a better college. I did a quick google search and found numerous studies showing the link between high grades and later success/job opportunity/wealth. The federal government tracks income data for college graduates at every college in the nation - from that data, one sees that the elite/selective schools usually have higher average income post-graduation over non-elite schools - by quite a lot. So, I think the premise of the cited article is opinion-based but presented as fact, even though there are facts that support an opposite conclusion. In terms of the more traditional definition of success aligned with a good career and more wealth, I believe grades and your college do matter
On a personal note, both my husband and I attended Ivy league schools and I attended a selective school for grad school. Every job opportunity each of us has ever had (and there have been many) has come from an alum or connection at one of our alma maters. Moreover, people who find out about our background (and we don’t publicize this) immediately “assume” we are intelligent and successful. More than 25 years out and that stereotype continues to open doors and opportunities for us. We can call upon alums we do not know for advice and favors and due to the network, they respond and help - we find it all the time. The elite schools we attended (I came from modest means - 1st generation immigrant family and my husband came from a fairly modest background too) have given us a leg up on life at every turn, far more than I would ever have expected. We were lucky to gain admittance and very grateful for the opportunities given to us. Also, our friends who graduated from these institutions (many of whom also came from ordinary backgrounds), almost without fail, lead very productive, successful careers and seem to be having an awful lot of fun in life.
Now, as I said at the beginning - success is subjective. This is not everyone’s definition of success and I am glad it is not. But a good job with a healthy income is a common definition of success and the data shows that good grades and more selective schools pay off in that regard.
Anyone, anywhere can be successful. An Ivy League education does not guarantee success and community college doesn’t preclude it. That is the message I tell my kids. Work hard to try to get into the best school you can as it will likely make your life easier and open more doors. Should that not happen (and it is a crap shoot these days due to the heavy competition), don’t worry - you will still be very successful due to your strong work ethic and intelligence and can be successful wherever you go to school.
Agree wshs2017 that the Ivy’s will give you a big leg up but no guarantee. I know a Princeton graduate that was in Architecture, got laid off since jobs were sent to India due to cost cutting. I know this person was not very happy in that job and wanted a major lifestyle change. Disillusioned with the corporate scene. Is now a dog walker with very steady business. Is very happy and has been doing that for years.
The argument about the association between a prestige name college vs a solid regional college are endless. But I absolutely agree that we do our kids no favors by allowing them to think that a prestige name college is the only path to future happiness or that future happiness is solely associated with material wealth.
“The argument about the association between a prestige name college vs a solid regional college are endless. But I absolutely agree that we do our kids no favors by allowing them to think that a prestige name college is the only path to future happiness or that future happiness is solely associated with material wealth.”
Absolutely true momofthreeboys…very unhealthy to buy into “overrated prestige” to the detriment of everything else! A 15 year old kid committed suicide recently in my area…becoming way too common. He was smart (3.7 GPA but not 4.0 plus), a great athlete in baseball, and well liked by all for his humble, low-key, and helpful nature and treated everyone with respect. He also helped the handicapped in his spare time. His suicide note mentioned the “need to be perfect” academically or you are viewed as a “failure” as well as the selfish, materialistic nature of so many (more so in the “rich” area where this happened), as well as having a good “compassionate” heart viewed in American Society as “weak” where people take advantage of that character flaw! His parents were completely baffled why this happened since he showed no outward signs of distress…now have to live the rest of their lives with this tragic event that shouldn’t be happening!
Are you actually criticizing parents who need to work? Are you suggesting that parents work only to get a new range rover or piano lessons? Are you implying that parents who are home with their kids at 6PM instead of 3PM are somehow remiss in their parenting?
@gallentjill I’m sorry you were offended. But thanks for pulling that one sentence out of everything I was aiming to say. I am implying that those parents who are not home parenting their children no more than to put them to bed at night and have a play date on Sunday are remiss if they are also living in 5000 sf waterview homes with a 3-car garage and Range Rover parked next to the horse barn. If the shoe fits wear it. If you are working 60 hours a week to put food on the table and pay rent, that shoe doesn’t fit. Let’s not deny that there’s a fair percentage of day cares and nannys raising our youth because parents feel they and their children are entitled and that their kids deserve A/B/C/D, pick a door. This entitled generation didn’t get there by mowing their own lawns.
Really?
Then why do we all go nuts over college?
We don’t all.
“the data shows that good grades and more selective schools pay off in that regard.”
It does not actually, the data show that for some majors it may make a slight difference, but for stem, there’s no difference at all. Here’s a quote from one study:
“For science majors, the prestige of a school mattered least of all. The authors found that the sciences exhibited the “statistically weakest earnings differences for a given major across college selectivity types.”
And even these studies can only show small correlations, they cannot show causation.
There will be no agreement on this, but I think there is some influence. If a hiring manager has four resumes to choose from for one f2f interview for an entry level SW design job which will he choose? Lets say that resumes are all new graduates with degrees as follows: S.B in computer Science and Engineering from MIT, B.S. in computer science from New Mexico Tech, an A.S. in computer science from Mesa Community College, and a graduate of multiple Le Wagon Coding Bootcamps. Who get’s the invite?
Many will prefer the bachelor’s degree graduates over the associates degree and boot camp graduates. Of the bachelor’s degree graduates, if they otherwise show similar qualifications, the MIT graduate will be recruited by Wall Street and consulting companies that pay more and therefore be less likely to accept an employment offer, so the NM Tech graduate may be more likely to produce an accepted employment offer.
@rivet2000 I think there is pretty wide consensus that if all else is equal, a highly prestigious name can open some doors, especially at some very prestigious firms. However, that is not universally true. There are people who prefer to higher the “scrappy” kids who come up through the state schools. At least when I was going through, Brooklyn Law School was a better intro to the DA’s office then NYU or Columbia. Some People have strong preferences for their own alma maters AND their peer schools. If you had a great experience at Dickenson, you may be very well disposed to people from all the schools similar to Dickenson. Hiring is also quite regional. I might know the schools around NY and have no idea about schools outside the area. Pomona? Grinnel? Hendrix? Who knows?
Also, all things are rarely equal. People have different accomplishments during college, work on different kinds of projects and have different internships. Hard working kids at lesser known colleges may need to work hard to get the kind of experience that elevates a resume, but they do it all the time.
In regard to Rivet’s example, I don’t know much about software design, but I imagine that for a hiring manager, the type of projects in a students portfolio would stand out more then the name of the school.
There are many contorted paths to avoid the obvious from my simple example: who gets called for a f2f. But I think’s it’s pretty obvious that credentials come with weight and the university attended is part of that. Classes taken counts, grades received counts, internships count. With little else to go on aside from a resume (not sure how to consider “scrappy-ness”) I believe that where they go to college helps. It’s not the only thing - but it is a thing.
A couple other observations:
If the college attended doesn’t matter, why would this be the case?
I agree here, but many of the top colleges , like MIT, offer such a an opportunity rich environment that it is much easier to get that added experience. Can that “scrappy” kid achieve the same? Yes. Will it be more difficult? Yes.
@Rivet2000 I would argue that the scrappy kid will have it easier due to less competition for the best opportunities. Every kid at say MIT isn’t getting the same opportunities. There is competition at every school for the more desireable ECs, leadership positions, internships, etc.