<p>Why can’t it be that they don’t get in because their test scores and GPAs aren’t at the top?</p>
<p>It’s so bogus. So many more people think they should get into the “top” schools than really should get in. Just because one’s ego says he/she should be accepted doesn’t mean he/she really should be accepted.</p>
<p>Blaming others or blaming some agenda may make one feel good but doesn’t make it right.</p>
<p>I do agree that EC’s and essays can be influenced by wealth, parental support and connections. I know that most of the admits to HYPSCM from my region are prepped since they were high school freshmen. Their parents funded them to fly to the US every summer to do summer programs at prestigious schools, etc. Also, these people mostly come from private prep schools that are US-based and provide excellent consulting services, and they mostly gain internships through connections. Of course - these kids are all hard workers, determined and very bright - that’s why they can use all these resources to eventually succeed. However, I also know some people who are equally bright, but are unable to have the same achievements because they lack these privileges. Also, most of them didn’t decide to go to the US until junior year (including me). I personally think that our essays become the central part of our app.</p>
<p>That said - I think it’s completely understandable for people with super high stats and incredible ECs to feel bitter after a ‘lower-qualified’ applicant got in, and he/she didn’t. (I sometimes doubt my own acceptance since I got in while a US kid with 100000 volunteer hours and 10 internships didn’t) It’s natural and very human to feel that way.</p>
<p>But in this case she was the “lower-qualified” applicant.</p>
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<p>True - a 2120 is on the lower side.</p>
<p>to Madaboutx; no one is blaming others. we’re blaming the schools, and the admits process. It’s a joke.</p>
<p>I agree, the admit process is not what it should be. I won’t say I blame the schools, but I have found many of them using processes that seem disappointingly short-sighted. In service of their next-year’s statistics, I would guess. So what do we do to change it? How does it become better, less of a joke?</p>
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<p>I’m not referring to the girl who wrote the letter, haha. I’m referring to the brilliant CC users here and other super applicants who (imo) have the right to be disappointed about their admissions results.</p>
<p>The issue as I see it is not about the things that set two students apart but why one is chosen over another in the event that ALL things are equal EXCEPT for race. Say both have the same stats, do the same ECs, happen to write about the same life event that inspired them, yada yada. Let’s even go a step farther and say the parents of both work at the same law firms/medical practices, etc AND the kids attended the same tony private school. The one who is URM will be chosen over the white kid. Whether they are both wealthy, with the same advantages and stats etc or if they are both economically disadvantaged, at the end of the day, the nod will go to the URM. That is absolutely blatant discrimination.</p>
<p>I would also point out that because of being “URM”, there are actually handed out advantages often along the path so by the time students get to applying to college, the theoretical uneven playing field has been compensated for and what one has done with those advantages if one’s own burden or bonus.</p>
<p>Most URMs do not come from the backgrounds you describe. I take it your kids didn’t go to a very diverse high school. The idea that most African-American, Latino or some Asian immigrant groups (i.e., the Hmong) have been receiving “advantages” and “compensation” is remarkably out of touch with reality.</p>
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<p>I defy you to produce an example where ALL things are equal except race. No, don’t bother because you can’t. I do get weary when this tired old trope gets trotted out yet again.</p>
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<p>And the White child would get the nod over the Asian.</p>
<p>“And the White child would get the nod over the Asian.”
-said no one. Ever.</p>
<p>Just learned something really, really depressing, as our S got rejected from 4 Ivies (in 7 min. on Ivy Day), plus Hopkins and Rice. A new acquaintance told of a conversation in the past year or so with the regional adcom director for a top Ivy (among HYPC). We live in a suburb immediately adjacent to Chicago. It seems that, so far as the Ivies and other top-top colleges are concerned, we’re part and parcel of Chicago, the same geographic admit pool, and since they know that they can get all of the URM kids for their class, kids who may not be stellar but still can actually do the work, from the top Chicago HS’s (Young, Payton, Lane, Northside, etc.), they just mainly take URMs from this pool. That means that, instead of, say, 30% of the spots from our area being reserved for URMs - and all kids, with FA need or not - competing for the other 70%, it’s more like the other way around, that it’s more like 70% of the admitted kids from this geographic pool are URMs, because the schools can more efficiently get them from this largest Midwestern city, leaving the rest to compete for the other 30% of slots.
Not surprisingly, if our very competitive public HS is not atypical, that also means that most if not all of the non-URMs who do get in can pay full sticker so they do not submit the red flag of a FAFSA or CSS. So yes, some non-URM kids do get in, but it skews the numbers even more wildly than you’d think, and means that there are lots more startling instances “I can’t believe that X got in; her/his quals are way below mine.”
I mean, universities are businesses, too. I get that. I just wish they could find a way to be more honest about such things. Just go ahead and say that if you’re from a major metro, you’re going to need FA, and you’re not a URM, athlete or legacy, even if you’re a 4.0/36/2400 with solid ECs, etc., you’re better off buying lottery tickets with your application fee.
Fortunately, there are other good if not great schools out there who want a focused and accomplished NMF kid like ours. A good education can still be had of course, and it’s a lot about motivation. So f’em. I’m just sorry we got duped into letting our S apply. I wish they’d find a way to be honest instead of just padding their application numbers (and the income that comes from it).</p>
<p>How is a FAFSA or CSS a “red flag” at a need blind school?</p>
<p>ericd, thanks for sharing your experience. I am thinking less and less that admissions is a crap shoot. And while it may not be only about URM’s, diversity, and financially aware admissions decisions, it is obviously carefully considered manipulation of those factors and of yield and median GPA/SAT statistics, about rankings and reputation and the business decisions that feed those numbers.</p>
<p>Just to address the question of the FAFSA and the CSS Profile – most schools are not need blind, many are need aware, and admissions decisions will be also be based on applications for financial assistance. We were actually told this as my son was waitlisted at a beloved school – he might be removed from the waitlist “if funds become available.” No one ever said colleges do not have to remain solvent, and education is a business, but the process is by no means transparent and applications for FA interact with admissions decisions in ways applicants just do not see.</p>
<p>I am particularly impressed by something ericd said which the majority on this board seem to forget: the profound truth is that kids are admitted who may not be stellar, but can certainly do the work. At almost any of these schools, there are many many many more kids than those who are admitted who can do the work, if given the chance to succeed. On every thread, at every school, kids and parents are beating themselves up over 100 points on their SAT’s (total) which is a few questions at best on a bad breakfast, or the difference between a 3.87 and a 3.92 GPA that is really nothing – the difference between a plus and a minus in a single class, a teacher’s preference for pagination even. This focus on numbers is just crazy-making and the absolute wrong direction we need to be going with our higher education. </p>
<p>I am so glad your kid and mine have found their way to schools that really want them for who they are.</p>
<p>In the end I agree with greetasola’s conclusion. That is basically, help your kid find a school that “wants THEM”. They can excel, and be very successful from then on. We’re just now starting to see the backlash against privates with inflated pricing, opaque acceptance criteria, and overly PC admissions policies. The “exclusive privates” bubble will burst. Some schools are already giving more merit money (a sure sign) and even a few are dropping actual tuition rates. A good student can go to “directional state u” and come out and kick the Ivy kid’s axx all around the block in a career. Why? Because they had to work for it with no sense of entitlement. </p>
<p>Hey, privates by definition can do what they want. They’re not publicly funded. But our kids can also do what they want…not pay the over-inflated tuitions, and go to a great public, or a private that gets it. Vote with your feet, and your wallet. The Skippy and Buffy schools that are denying competitive applications routinely…will without doubt pay the price in the end.</p>
<p>^calmom: Because, per any number of recent articles on the subject, some if not many colleges that declare themselves to be need-blind are lying.</p>
<p>Mitch and greeta: Indeed, as a parent, it’s important for a school to want your child. In our case my wife and I feel incredibly fortunate that, after the hope and dejection our S went through from having played the “top school” lotto and lost in rapid-fire fashion (5 rejections online in 7 minutes on Ivy Day), he ended up at a school that really wanted him. I wanted him to have a couple of reaches - I think trying is good, extending yourself is good - he chose a couple and then a handful that, per the data but not the hidden reality, were allegedly matches. At this point he says his main disappointment is the lack of validation from not having been found acceptable at any of them. I know that will come once he’s at school. Frankly, we know he’s going to love it, that in a year he may retain the sting if he thinks about it but he won’t be carrying it around like he still is now, AP Physics day.</p>
<p>Oh, and did I mention? Added bonus. His school - Miami (OH - honors program) - since it’s a state school, is required by the State of Ohio to grant certain credits for various AP courses. So while in the midst of rejections he felt his post-decision AP work was going to be wasted, he now knows that every AP point translates to more options and opportunities at his school.</p>
<p>He’s going to have a great time, and because they wanted him (seriously; he or we got something from them every week from December to April) and were willing to explicitly value his accomplishments in ways more “prestigious” schools wouldn’t have, his Mom and Dad don’t have to take second jobs to pay for it. He likes that he got money for achievement (merit aid) instead of just generic aid for getting in, as would have been the case at an Ivy or other top privates like Hopkins and Rice. They’re great schools, don’t get me wrong, but the wanting-him part is important and since the “top schools” aid is all need-based ironically he wouldn’t have gotten the same lift with FA for having done well.</p>
<p>He’s getting an excellent undergraduate education (USNWR ranks it #3 in undergrad teaching after Princeton and Dartmouth), with a truly classic college experience (Robert Frost called it the most beautiful campus there is), at a place that’s going to take care of him (he’s going to have four(!) advisors), live and study with a bunch of really smart kids (honors program & dorm), they have exactly what he wants (a special center for it), he’s going to get to study overseas (his merit aid applies to their Luxembourg campus), and we can afford it - so we’ll be able to help pay for grad school. As I said, my wife and I are thrilled, we just wish he didn’t have to get dinged by a disingenuous system.</p>
<p>MitchKreyben-</p>
<p>I’m not sure why you feel the need to perpetuate the myth that the Ivy League is filled with Skippy and Buffy dilettantes who laze their days away spending Mumsy and Daddy’s money. Kids at these schools work very hard. They work hard to get in and they work hard while they’re there.</p>
<p>As to affordability, compare Harvard with UMass Amherst, the Massachusetts state flagship. Harvard has a higher percentage of students on financial aid (63 vs 56 percent for UMass) and covers a higher percentage of costs, and those students accumulate much less debt ($10,102 for Harvard vs. $25,420 for UMass). </p>
<p>[Information taken from both school’s Common Data Set for 2010-11]</p>
<p>sally et al,</p>
<p>not that it will matter to you but I clearly blew it with the example I chose. lets find all things being equal except for race of two extremely poor inner city kids-one white and one black or hispanic. I would still argue that the black or hispanic would be chosen over the white. I dont know where your kids go to school. Clearly you THINK you know where my kids go to school. I doublt you will find many “diverse” schools that have 100% non white population so, without the red herring of your posit about where MY children “obviously” do or do not go to school, the fact remains, statistically speaking, that ALL THINGS BEING THE SAME EXCEPT FOR RACE, the URM would get the nod over the white. And, as I wrote earlier, THAT is institutional discrimination and THAT p***es me off. Very much. </p>
<p>We’ll see what Fisher brings…</p>