@makemesmart Nowadays it is true meritocracy, because in the UK there would be a huge political outcry if there was any hint of favoritism (which is easy to see if an applicant doesn’t get the necessary A-level results). In fact at least one of those rejections came while he was the Prime Minister. When I went to college in the 1980s there was a bit more wiggle room for the royal family etc (accompanied by snide comments about Prince Edward being a bit thick) but even that’s not true any more.
Tiggerdad and Whatchater2: In our neck of the woods, there are many who expect to get into Ivy league schools. Both public and private schools close by have a large mix of legacy and other hooked applicants ( sports, minority, etc). They are very surprised when there are so many in a single school who qualify and so few who get acceptances. (I am speaking only of those whose stats meet the mid range). I guess in some cities there might be a single applicant every year or so. In some school systems there are 10’s if not dozens.
It is not just Ivy entitlement. EA decision threads for BC, Northeastern, Tulane, Villanova, Case Western and others here on CC have many top statted students (1500+, 35+) getting deferred. Some students and parents are indignant that they were deferred at what they thought was their safety school. A couple even state that they didn’t really like the school much. Some are withdrawing their applications.
Then there are the OOS students who are surprised that they cannot get any financial aid at the UC’s.
@ucbalumnus “Seems like she is only bitter because she did not choose safety schools that she likes.”
That was my point. She is bitter because she and her parents believed that she was not only going to get into a top 20 school, but she was entitled to a full ride. Now she is faced with accepting state schools that are not well ranked. I think she could have gotten a full-ride at a better-ranked school than her state alternative if she had researched and understood the process better. I think this entitlement comes from not being educated on the process and the belief that the student is somehow deserving above all others. She has been overheard trash talking other students who were accepted ED about how they didn’t deserve a spot.
What IS “meritocracy”? Strictly based on test scores and grades? If meritocracy is thus defined, does it correlate to success? If so, all successful folks must have had great test scores and grades. My own native country, South Korea, has this meritocratic system. It produced 0 Nobel Prize winners except a Nobel Peace Prize.
@TiggerDad Thanks! Im sure he is a shoe in now!
@Twoin18 Maybe it’s both. I certainly see the xenophobia behind a lot of people’s comments, particularly in CA. But I can see your perspective as well. Personally, I don’t know anyone who speaks in a way that makes them seem entitled to an Ivy. A few have an odd desperation about Ivies, but to me that seems like they really want it and fear they won’t get it–not entitlement exactly. I think the point made earlier in the thread about only 3% of CA high schoolers getting into UCB and UCLA, compared to roughly 1/3 getting into the state flagships in other states, is really interesting–will need to think about that some more.
@ucbalumnus Yes I completely agree, the US is far from a meritocracy in many areas, particularly in the political realm. But the speech at our citizenship ceremony was certainly intended to give the opposite impression 
In your neck of the woods, students and parents should also know what to expect of their chances based on the precedents, no?
My “neck of the woods” sounds like TiggerDad and Happytimes2001, lots of alums, lots of money for coaching etc… But I agree with TiggerDad that the corollary to all of that is that parents are educated about the prospects for their kids and are under no illusions that just because a legacy has the grades etc that they will be accepted, it just doesnt work that way and all of those involved, counselors, students, and parents, know that and plan accordingly.
Not so sure you can rely on precedent. At my son’s school, a particular ivy may have taken 4 or 5 ED the year before, then one this year. Things like legacy, alumnus involvement, and giving often lose their impact from year to year depending on a host of other factors.
In many cases students are also getting confusing messages from the generations before them. Many parents and particularly grandparents think an A student sports captain with 1550+ SAT’s is a match for most Ivies because that’s the way it was when they were in school. “Notre Dame? Wake Forest? Beneath you!”
For reference my father attended Williams because he was a C student. My brother, an A- student with strong test scores and good but not exceptional ECs, also attended Williams. My niece was an A student sports star who says she doubts she could get in today. My father’s best friend, another mediocre student (C/C+) attended Brown.
I live in a small city with my boy’s high school typically sending only 2 to Ivy, 1 to Stanford or MIT and 1 to Duke each year. The parents and their kids are very well aware of this and the data from Naviance. Regardless of what neck of the woods we all live in, I assume that people, especially students, are quite well aware of their chances based on the precedents.
Yep, in my neck of the woods, many see it as a fight to the death (funny really if it weren’t for the kids). But they are prepared. Though I’d say people who went Ivy years ago are more laid back about there kids going to the best fit then others who have not gone and want to live vicariously through their kids. Either way, some stressed kids as a result. What’s the end game exactly? Shouldn’t kids make their own path in life? I keep telling my kids the same.
And TiggerDad: Good point that test scores do not necessarily correlate with big thinking. Some French friends of ours recently said, they came here to live because they want to live in a country where things are possible not told how things can’t be done. ( Don’t want to get into a discussion of French life/politics/values with any Francophiles) but I think it says a lot that the US is the land of people creating businesses and starting out with nothing and becoming great. You can’t get that in many places. Maybe that is an additional incentive for Non-US students to come here for University.
I live outside of New York, lots of expectations. At my sons school the guidance counselor was nicknamed “the dreamkiller” because her job was to explain, not so much to Johnny but to Johnnys parents, that Johnny would not be attending Harvard.
@TiggerDad The definition used in the UK (for an Oxbridge interview) is basically “which kid will be the most successful academically in this subject (even beyond your first degree)”? Its not about success outside academia (although obviously smarter people will do better on average and the connections you make with lots of smart people plus the signaling of getting that degree do matter) and its not surprising that would correlate very strongly with Nobel Prizes (it was a running joke at my college that we had “more Nobel Prizes than France”). Its less clear to me that a wholly test based approach (perhaps with more rote learning?) can achieve the same thing (and of course there are cultural issues in that awards of those top prizes were certainly biased again Asian countries for many years).
But I’d say the US holistic selection system at top schools can be perceived as closer to “which kid will be the most successful in life”. If you could trace Ivy-entitlement to anything it would be kids and parents’ expectation for that kid to be successful in life (which kids get told a lot more than “you will discover a cure for cancer”). So rejection can be viewed as “you won’t be a success in life”. That’s a lot harder to deal with than “you won’t be a top math/history/economics professor”.
There are a whole lot more people who are a “success in life” who didn’t go to an Ivy or even a top 10 or 20 college/university than who did. Though from my experience, the number of people with the Ivy/Top 20 or fail view of college selection/admission process is not very large (and that’s even true of people on this board which isn’t representative of the population of college aged people and their families at large).
I don’ think the reputation of CC for this kind of “entitlement” is deserved at all. There are all kinds of kids on here,and all kinds of parents, and all kinds of situations, some of them quite painful.
My community almost never sent anyone to top schools and was pretty darn chill- but maybe it has changed in the last 10 years.
As for Ivies, following the conventional route of grades, course rigor, good scores and in school EC’s is misguided. Ironically, someone suggested pursuing a genuine interest or talent instead, and forgetting about Ivies, but I think those are actually the kids that selective schools like these days.
Those posting “chance” threads on Ivy League forums aren’t entitled. They seem desperate to me and many of them are not well-informed on other options.
The biggest service anyone can offer is that education on other options, including state U’s, Colleges that Change Lives and so on. That said, no one should denigrate the experience at selective schools either, just because they are hard to get into. Living with remarkable peers is perhaps the biggest plus.
But “dreaming of Harvard since age 5” isn’t healthy obviously.
Ok…I just read the first page of posts…I also had two kids who letters in varsity sports.
One got a varsity letter when his whole team won some state championship. He never played in that championship…but everyone got letters. He stopped the sport after 10th grade. Included the sport on his applications…but not the letter. I mean really…what did he do to earn it? Nothing.
Second kid also got a varsity letter in her sport at the end of her senior year. NO ONE got letters in this sport until the end of senior year. Oh…and my kid never swam in a meet…not one time…in her senior year due to a shoulder injury. Guess her letter was for being the team timekeeper. She was on the team for four years…never missed a practice.
Did this impact college admissions for either kid. Nope.
First and probably the only CC post from me - just want to share this 2012 YouTube video of a high school graduation speech. Some of you may have seen the video, which I think the speaker gave a good advice on humility. The students and/or their parents who embrace the sense of “entitlement” may benefit from watching this video. But then they may just disagree with the whole speech. Here it is: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lfxYhtf8o4