<p>Thanks for the explanation on undergrad’s. I really didn’t understand the whole Columbia College, FSEAS thing.</p>
<p>SBDad… as to the ADHD/“supportive” issue: My son floundered in an environment that offered too much freedom - it was a small LAC which offered lots of “support”… but maybe too much handholding and not the kick in the pants he really needed. He has an ADD learning style- though no formal diagnosis – but lots of ups & downs. He’s either on or off, intensely involved in something or sleeping till noon. In college he got A’s in all of his hardest courses, & dismal grades in courses that would seem easiest. His experience in the work world is the same: he does better at jobs where the demands are the highest. </p>
<p>I think everyone is unique, so you need to toss out the label and simply focus on what your own kid needs. But his attraction to the idea of a core may mean that deep down, he knows he will do best in a demanding environment where rules & standards are very clear. </p>
<p>One more thing: I understand the concept of applying to one Ivy just to see if he gets in – but if Chicago is the top choice, it really makes no sense. Keep in mind that one thing that keeps the Ivies so competitive is all those people with high test scores who really don’t want to go there, but just want to “see” if they can get in. You aren’t doing any favors for the kids who have their heart set on Columbia or Brown or whatever. I personally don’t think that anyone should take pride in trophy hunting. </p>
<p>In other words, don’t encourage your son to apply to reach colleges unless he sincerely wants to attend whatever college he is applying to. </p>
<p>If you (and he) are torn between the idea of high challenge + strong core - or an environment that is strongly supportive of his ADHD (and flexible about time extensions, making up courses, etc.) – I’d suggest a two pronged application strategy. In addition to applying to Chicago and similarly rigorous colleges, he should develop a safety/match list of the type of colleges featured in “Colleges that Change Lives”. He can make his ultimate decision after he gets in.</p>
<p>Where are you from in Michigan? I was going to say Brown also (quirky), but you would have to design your own core, however I am the Ivy antiexpert.</p>
<p>Calmom:“You aren’t doing any favors for the kids who have their heart set on Columbia or Brown or whatever.” </p>
<p>Sorry, but this makes absolutely no sense. </p>
<p>Colleges accept students knowing that not all the students will attend and that is why they accept MORE kids than they are seeking. That is why there is a yield percentage for every school(and not 100%). If one year, a lot more students apply to one IVY that are not planning on attending there, the college still has options to reach their target class size. That’s what the waitlist is for. So, I don’t think someone who has dreams for Brown will be affected by another student’s decision to apply to Brown who is not planning on attending.</p>
<p>The fact of the matter is that every year, thousands of students that apply to colleges they are not planning on attending. For example, many high achieving students apply to state schools even if they know that even one acceptence to another school on their list will mean that they refuse the state school’s offer. Calmom, are you suggesting that these students shouldn’t apply so that someone who dreams of this state school can get in? The in-state college knows that this happens and therefore accepts more students to maintain their class size. Therefore, the dreamer’s chances of getting in to the state school are not affected whatsoever by the students who aren’t attending.</p>
<p>Calmom, remember that colleges want more applications, not less. That is why they spend thousands of dollars every year sending promotional stuff in the mail to increase the number of applications they receive. So, i don’t see how OP’s son applying to an Ivy hurts anyone (other students, the college, etc.).</p>
<p>Also applying to college under a regular decision is not a binding contract. Therefore, the student is doing nothing wrong, legally. Morally, I don’t see whats wrong with applying to a college that you are not planning on attending just to see if you can get in. I have a friend who applied to Stanford even though she knew she couldn’t afford it compared to a full ride a state university. She got in and even though she couldn’t attend had no regrets about applying. She said it motivated her to do well in college because she knew that she was worthy of acceptence at a top school.</p>
<p>SBDad – I answered your question on the Columbia forum before I spotted this thread with the reference to your son’s ADHD. (Did you used to post under a different name, by the way? I had a PM discussion with a Michigan jazz parent.)</p>
<p>As much as my kid is enjoying Columbia and its core, I have to say I’d look carefully at it for you son. Mainly, NYC presents a heck of a lot of distractions – more than he’d find at either Carelton or U of C. While I’m sure there are study center resources, would he seek them out? Add to that the distance from home and the question of how used he is to dealing with a workload on his own. (I have a niece with ADHD and I know how much high school math her parents re-learned standing over her shoulder for four years, even though she’s a very smart kid.) Columbia moves at a tremendous pace (almost a book a week in the core classes, papers, problem sets), both in the classroom and out, and you can’t get off the pace for long before suffering consequences. </p>
<p>I think I’d have opposite concerns about Brown. It may be too unstructured. But I agree it gets quirkier, or at least artsier kids, partly because of the connection with RISD. Jazz wise, there is less there.
All in all, if he likes Chicago and Carleton, I’m not sure why you’d want to add an Ivy just for the sake of an Ivy. They are both great schools. If you want to add a couple of others: How about Wesleyan – quirky, good music department. Or Reed – quirky, close to downtown Portland with its own music scene.</p>
<p>Otherwise, Columbia sounds like a fit for your kid in terms of the core and the jazz. I wouldn’t say the overall feel of the student body I get is quirky, but there are lots of different kinds of kids there, so it doesn’t really matter whether you are quirky or not. If you add Columbia to the mix, I’d try to find some other families whose kids have ADHD and see how they’ve fared, and to check out whether there are any special resources.</p>
<p>“Quirky” is the adjective used most often to describe Brown, if that helps. The students there also seem to be the happiest lot of any we encountered on our college visits and had a hard time answering what they like least about their school.</p>
<p>I immediately thought “Brown” when you said “quirky.” Brown is also very accepting of students with learning disabilities. Either the former or current Dean of Admissions has a son with learning disabilities, and it is my understanding that they are the most sensitive to issues of ADHD. In fact two former Brown students with ADHD wrote a book about the subject. I think it’s called “Coloring Outside the Lines”.</p>
<p>There is some relationship between Columbia and Manhattan School of Music, which has an excellent jazz program…perhaps that would be of interest to your son.</p>
<p>The relationship is between Barnard and the Manhattan School of Music. There is a relationship between Columbia and Julliard, which also has a jazz program, but you have to get into both and it’s intense. However, there is a lot of jazz at Columbia.</p>
<p>Interesting about Brown and learning disabilities.</p>
<p>*In fact two former Brown students with ADHD wrote a book about the subject. I think it’s called “Coloring Outside the Lines”.<a href=“Learning%20outside%20the%20lines”>/i</a>
we have two copies of that book- one for each daughter= highly recommended</p>
<p>SBDad, I’m going to play the devil’s advocate here and interpret “quirky” as meaning independent, as in your son’s his own person. Looking for a strong core at an Ivy in a city with a good jazz/music experience. I’m going to recommend that he take a look at Harvard. No hand-holding. But LOTS of independent high-achieving thinkers. And Harvard has a fledgling relationship with the New England Conservatory, but there’s lots of other jazz around, too. But it’s NOT a place to put a “what if” effort into an application. Go visit. If he wants to apply, then SERIOUSLY put the effort into a good application.</p>
<p>depending on what you mean by “quirky”, princeton could be a good choice. Although they don’t have a defined core, they have the freshman humanities sequence which would fulfill about the same purpose. You can definately get a classical education, while at the same time completing the pre-med courses. I actually know several pre-meds who did the humanities sequence. Princeton is a supportive environment, althouh you can definately be left alone if you want. </p>
<p>while princeton at first glance isnt quirky – ie the campus is filled with people dressed pretty preppy, the majority of the people are what i would describe as quirky once you get to know them. Tilghman and Rapleye are also trying ot increase the number of “arty” kids who would traditionally be the quirky ones-- which the new lewis arts center should help.</p>
<p>There is also a very good (from hwat ive heard) music program, and one of my friends is actually a jazz pianist on campus, and has taken a jazz music class or two</p>
<p>Yup, the freshman HUM course at Pton is definitely worth looking into. And believe me, all of us (or at least most of us) in it are certainly the quirky/nerdy types, myself included, lol. Happy to answer any questions about it too.</p>
<p>I would agree with ec and jss. The Princeton kids are those who in their hearts are quirky and nerdy but less visibly so than Brown kids.</p>
<p>Hi SBDad, nice to meet you ;)</p>
<p>I am a Brown alum. I can talk your ear off about the reasons for an open curriculum, and ADHD may be one of them. </p>
<p>My son is ADD (not H) and I notice his intense level of interest in a topic does function as a natural stimulant and thus mitigates the need for medication. Even without meds, he was always able to get an A in the class with the fascinating topic/teacher. </p>
<p>I hope my son picks an open curriculum school mostly because I think following one’s educational passions has big educational and life-long payoffs. Also, it is SO MUCH FUN. But a third reason is that natural passion for the topic makes life so much easier vis a vis the kid’s ADD.</p>
<p>Brown has a med school that opens great science opps to undergrads <em>and</em> a PLME program where you are admitted as a college freshman to both undergrad & med school-- quite competitive though.</p>
<p>It is quirky, cooperative, not a pressure cooker, and there is also a great deal of music. At Brown, people put pressure on themselves but nobody does it from the outside. Clearly your son’s HS record shows he is managing well with the ADHD… I do not have specific info about LD resources at Brown</p>
<p>Another school that fits your son’s list is Haverford. Nerdy more than quirky but really nice kids, great science opportunities. Distribution but no core. Wesleyan is similar but quirkier and bigger, with a fabulous music dept.</p>
<p>The correct title is:
(“Learning” not “Coloring”)
Learning Outside The Lines : Two Ivy League Students With Learning Disabilities And Adhd Give You The Tools For Academic Success and Educational Revolution
by Jonathan Mooney and David Cole</p>
<p>Mooney spoke at our high school a couple of years ago. He was a very impressive speaker and I think he really inspired some of the kids in attendance.</p>
<p>Alumother how is princeton regarding core since you have the experience. I thought it was more create your own core pretty open in that way. I also got the feeling from my brother that there are indeed lots and lots of Genius kids there whereas I thought the place initially was social and prepped. Any thoughts from your experience?</p>
<p>That’s a good question Birdlover. My experience as a student of course was too long ago to be relevant:). From my experience as a mom I would say that Princeton has a couple of modes. First, there are distribution requirements, so it’s not wholly open. If you want to stop there in terms of following a core curriculum, you can. However, the Hum sequence and integrated science are both sort of like cores, one humanities focused and one science focused. So if you want a more focused path, cross-discplinary but across a core, it exists too.</p>
<p>And there while there are the social and prepped kids, there are also the social and not-prepped (think the Daily Princetonian) and there definitely are the genius kids. I still remember the names of the ones I went to school with - their thinking was so vivid.</p>
<p>SBDad,</p>
<p>Columbia accepts 29% of those that apply ED, 9% of those that apply RD.</p>
<p>There is a book out that estimates that applying ED is equivalent to scoring 150 points higher on the SAT’s.</p>
<p>Avoid HYP. At your visit, ask the adcoms what they look for in an application (ask more than one if you can). Do what they say. Apply ED. Find $200,000.00</p>
<p>harvard. and definitely johns hopkins and maybe duke (okay they’re not ivies but these two schools are far better than the rest of the ivies when it comes to premed…i’m sure you know that) and grinnell (much better premed program than carleton and somewhat more supportive environment)</p>