Also, if anyone doubts that the previously mentioned colleges are not Ivy-caliber, then I would say yes ONLY in the fact that they don’t have renowned varsity athletics and name recognition. In terms of learning, caliber of students, and outcomes they are definitely on par. I met a student who was accepted to Carnegie Mellon, Johns Hopkins, Cornell, and Brown and chose Williams. My D chose Carleton over Stanford and UC Berkeley recently, much to the shock of her classmates,
I am not big fan of Ivy league school even though they are very well known and I believe they are great institutes but so are other colleges. LAC are great but very different from Ivy’s. My husband graduated from Carleton and my best friend graduated from Pomona. My niece graduated from Grinnel but other nice and nephew were graduated from Princeton and Yale. And yes they are wealthy New Yorkers. We were supported when our daughter decided to go to Harvey Mudd instead of big institute. Because Mudd is good match for her. My other kids attended big university and they were happy there. Harvey Mudd is very unique college. I know it is not for everybody but they believe in Humanity Education so, kids must take Humanities along with their STEM studies. They are only undergraduate so, Faculty know students by name and care about their lives.
“In terms of learning … they are definitely on par.”
For undergraduate students, top LACs are not neutral alternatives to larger research universities. Either universities are better, or LACs are better, at least for a given student. I have reservations in thinking they are on par with each other, though they are commonly treated that way.
The best liberal arts schools have been very different in past yrs. Here’s my input regarding the most recent USNWR ranks:
Williams - almost always #1
Amherst - almost always #2, although alternates with Swat and Williams often
Swarthmore - like the other top 3, alternates
Wellesley - mostly #4, although has fallen to #7 (2014) and #8 (1980s)
Bowdoin - now we’re getting into the more variable territory; has recently been ranked in top 5, but prior to 2013 was #6, #7, and briefly in the 90s didn’t cut the top 10
Pomona - nearly a consistent #5 rank, sometimes up to #4 and down to #7 as in 2007 and 2008
Middlebury - usually top 5, until 2015, put from 2006 and before it was all over the place in the top schools, going to as low as #11
Carleton - in the 80s ranked high at #3 (taking Amherst out of the top 3 in 1988) and #4, then in 1989 dropped from the top 10, to reemerge in 1997 where it’s been high as #4 and as low as #9 in 1999 and 1997
Claremont McKenna - a recent school to cut the top 10, emerging in 2012, but prior to this was as low as not in the top 20s to as high as 11 in 2011 before finally making top 10
Haverford - made a huge leap in 1991 from #21 to #8 and has steadily been a top 10 school, with a high of 5 a few years in the early 2000s
Davidson - recently fell to #11, but has alternated throughout the years as a lower top 10/high top 20 school
Vassar - made top 10 in 2013, and that’s really been its only time in the top 10, usually ranking in the high top 20
@LACexpert2 - do you have historical USNR LAC ranking data? I’ve been looking for it…
@marvin100 I do! Sorry, should’ve shared it earlier: https://sites.google.com/site/andyreiter/data (bottom of the page)
The top 10 for some years were:
1988 (an interesting year for rankings, Oberlin and Wesleyan have fallen since then)
Williams
Swarthmore
Carleton
Amherst
Oberlin
Pomona
Wesleyan
Wellesley
Haverford
1995
Amherst
Williams
Swarthmore
Wellesley
Pomona
Bowdoin
Haverford
Davidson
Wesleyan
Carleton
2000
Swarthmore
Amherst
Williams
Wellesley
Haverford
Middlebury
Pomona
Carleton
Bowdoin
Wesleyan
2005
Williams
Amherst
Swarthmore
Wellesley
Carleton
Pomona
Bowdoin
Davidson
Haverford
Wesleyan
Do any of these give need based aid like HYPS? or large merit scholarships?
@nw2this All top LACs give need based aid. Like HYPS none give merit scholarships in the top 10 at least (I believe Claremont McKenna does offer some merit, but I have to double check that). Schools in the top 15 recently haven’t offered merit scholarships either. However, top 20 schools like Grinnell do offer some (up to $20,000 a year to be precise due to Grinnell’s crazy high endowment).
Merit scholarships are great for students, but they create a system of who’s the best of the best that top schools want to avoid: all students are high achievers and there’s no need to give the high achievers anymore financial incentive than the high but not high enough achievers.
Just go to each school’s web site and use the net price calculator to get an estimate from each school.
Not ready to do that much work yet. Its common knowledge for HYPS, if these schools aren’t known for it, then they probably don’t.
@LACexpert2 - you don’t have a more comprehensive data set? Just a few random years?
I just would like to note that this discussion is really a kind of game–and so is USNWR’s ratings. Anybody who chose one of these schools over another because of a difference of a few spots on any of these lists would be making a mistake.
Almost five years ago The Huffington Post compiled a list, in alphabetical order, of what it considered “the most intellectual colleges.” Eight were LACs (Carleton, Grinnell, Haverford, Macalester, Pomona, Reed, Swarthmore, Wesleyan), while just two (Chicago and Brown) were full-scale universities. Perhaps they considered Williams, Amherst, Wellesley, and Middlebury as more pre-professional than intellectual.
The top lacs all meet financial need, a few, like Amherst, do it without loans. I’d say the aid is comparable to hyp but they all have varying formulas.
@marvin100 This link and the thread I started link to here, which if you scroll to the bottom of the webpage you will find a .xlsx file: https://sites.google.com/site/andyreiter/data (bottom of the page)
The Little Eastern Ivies: Williams, Amherst, Trinity, Wesleyan, Bates, Bowdoin, Colby, Middlebury, Smith, Wellesley, mt. Holyoke, Vassar, CT College, Sarah Lawrence, Colgate, Hamilton, Haverford, Davidson, Bryn Mawr, Swarthmore; the Westerns: Pomona, Reed, Claremont-McKenna, Harvey Mudd, Pitzer,Scripps; mid-section: Carleton, Kenyon, Knox, Sewanee, Calvin.
I’d categorize the top LACs like this:
The Usual Elite - Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst
The Consistent Elite (in that they often have ranked higher/lower/equal to each other in past rankings) - Bowdoin, Carleton, Pomona, Haverford, Middlebury
The Up-and-Comers - Claremont McKenna, Davidson, Vassar
The Fallen Stars - Wesleyan (decades ago would probably be among Usual Elite because of its membership in the Little Three), Oberlin, Bryn Mawr, Grinnell
The Women’s Elite - Wellesley, Smith, Barnard
The STEM-Focused - Harvey Mudd
Following @Hunt, I am amused by this obsession with ranking small liberal arts colleges each of which has its own individual “personalities” and quirks, not to mention strengths and weaknesses. If you are a top student and want to go to a LAC in a warm climate where you have access to both skiing and surfing, then Pomona would be your first choice. If foreign languages are your thing, you might look at Middlebury. If you don’t mind cold weather and snow, Bowdoin, Williams, Carleton come to mind. If you want to be close to a big city, look at Swarthmore and Haverford but not Williams. If you want to be in a consortium with other colleges, Pomona, Amherst, Swarthmore. If you want to do film studies, go to Wesleyan.