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<p>this is THE classic – and i do mean CLASSIC – de facto strawman argument of the anti-Ivy folks. its page 1, line 1 in their playbook.</p>
<p>never, ever have i claimed (nor have many people claimed) that they are THE ONLY eight great schools in America.</p>
<p>menloparkmom: In thread #12 you asked if I was seeking information because I wanted to start a private practice myself.</p>
<p>Response: All of my college counseling these days is pro bono (free). I am a champion of the underdog – those without the financial resources to buy their way into an elite college.</p>
<p>Hope that clarifies things.</p>
<p>Dang looks like someone from the outside has gotten hold of a copy of “the playbook,” looks like we may have to do a major overhaul, shucks</p>
<p>OBW: I was 12 when I decided I wanted a career in computers. This was in the 60’s. Of course, I vacillated over the years and I remember doing my 8th grade report on the foreign service, but there must have been something in my 12 year old brain that knew it’s true self because I ended up in computer science. I think children often show their true colors at an early age. Those who do are the lucky ones because they don’t have to agonize over decisions or thrash around trying out different majors and taking 6 years to get through school. Perhaps the neighbor mentioned had quiet, introverted kids and they liked hanging around the house reading books.</p>
<p>Also, as parents we are here to guide our children. There’s nothing wrong with setting a particular environment and if the child is swayed by it - great. Would you complain about parents who set up an environment that assumes their children will go to college? Why would you complain about a parent who set the environment a little higher? Now, not all children march to the same drummer as their parents. A wise parent will set the environment, but allow the child who has a different opinion to choose something different. I don’t think you can fault the parents, however, just because the child agreed with the parents.</p>
<p>“I think children often show their true colors at an early age.” “Perhaps the neighbor mentioned had quiet, introverted kids and they liked hanging around the house reading books.”“Why would you complain about a parent who set the environment a little higher?”
I agree with all of the above, as a parent of one of those introverted, book loving, non athletic kids. I think OBW’s comment about the “invisible children” who weren’t seen until they were in college shows a lack of understanding of typical gifted children’s behavior. As a keen observer of many gifted kids [including my own son ] over the last 18 years, I agree that many have early interests that they often don’t grow out of-My son’s interest since the age of 5 been plate tectonics [earthquakes] and that interest continues to this day [ he is in his 3rd summer doing a graduate level internship at USGS- he’s 18]. A classmate of his started using computers at age 3, and was hired as a partime programer by Firefox when he was in 8th grade. Children who exibit these kinds of behavior are not “sad” they are different, and are often the kids of students who want to know about colleges earlier than typical kids, because they live to learn.
In the area where we live-Silicon Valley near Stanford University, there are many kids who are just as exceptional, and many brilliant, successful parents. Many of those parents were educated at top universities, and probably want the same opportunites for their children. So there may be a tendancy for parents here to be “Ivy obsessed” here, but it is more about the quality of the education they want their kids to receive than the name of the college their kids attend.</p>
<p>Its not the student. Its not the parent. Its the media. Take a day, watch movies, read the paper, watch the news, listen to the radio and take note of the names of Unis that you hear. I guarantee that you will hear Harvard more than any other. The media attention that the Ancient Eight receive is astounding.</p>
<p>This is like asking whether the obsession with eating and breathing started with kids or parents. It didn’t start with either one. It just comes naturally to us. Striving for high-end college admissions is a little bit of a specialized obsession, but it’s really no different from the Forbes list of richest people, the gold medal counts by country at every Olympics, kids dreaming of playing the Major Leagues, who won the Nobel Prizes this year, and middle-aged joggers trying to win an age group medal at the local 10K race. </p>
<p>They are all forms of being obsessed with excellence, competition, rankings, who’s best?, who’s biggest?, who’s got the most?, and just simply striving for the top - however you define the “top.” This obsession with the top exists in pretty much every human endeavor.</p>
<p>There are good aspects to this and harmful aspects to it. But it certainly didn’t start with parents. And it didn’t start with kids. It started with being human.</p>
<p>collegehelp (post #17), you’re kidding, right? You can’t possibly be saying that everyone with Ivy credentials should prefer an Ivy education over any of the alternatives, can you? Want a very big school (for the range of choices and classes, or the school spirit/big time sports scene) or a very small school (for the intimacy of relationships with other students and faculty–forget it, those are “time wasting activities”, right? Want to major in a subject not offered by any of the undergraduate Ivies (like journalism)–forget it, you’re striving for mediocrity. And, God forbid someone might actually want to go to school in a region of the country other than the Northeast (or wherever the other “Ivy-type” schools you speak of are located.</p>
<p>And you really wonder why people seem to attack the Ivy league obsession. Here’s a hint: it has nothing to do with the Ivy League schools themselves, which are superb schools, and fit SOME elite students very well, and everything to do with those who believe that no one who is a terrific student could possibly fit better in a different environment.</p>
<p>Scipio: In my thirty years of experience in working with thousands of students and parents, I can assure you that Ivy Obsession didn’t just “come to the students” with whom I worked. There were strong outside influences, usually parents, who were obsessed with the Ivies. Unfortunately, many of these parents were Ivy-obsessed for all the WRONG reasons:</p>
<ul>
<li>Bragging rights</li>
<li>Status</li>
<li>Competition in their professional workplace to see who’s child could get into the most competitive college, etc. etc. etc.</li>
</ul>
<p>Of course, not all parents are like this, but for many of the wealthy and status-conscious who have been able to buy all the material things that reflect status, admission to an Ivy is icing on the cake.</p>
<p>I have also seen many parents who were so obsessed with, and placed so much emphasis on, intellectualism and learning, that these parents never exposed their children to things that are normal steps in the psychological development process. Example: Exposure to activities that facilitate development of social skills and being a “team player.”</p>
<p>The extremely intellectual and highly educated parent who believes that learning is the single most important thing in one’s life may encourage their child to spend countless hours inside the house reading after school and on weekends, while other children in the neighborhood are outside playing baseball and riding bikes. Is that child introverted, non-athletic and socially inept because he is “gifted.?” Possibly. Or, on the other hand, has the child been DEPRIVED of the opportunity to do “normal” things because the parents overemphasized the importance of reading, intellectualism, etc. Maybe the child who spends many hours inside reading would really prefer to be outside playing baseball. But, because of the parental values in the family, the child might be deprived of this opportunity and may end up being introverted and lacking social skills.</p>
<p>The most intellectually brilliant students I’ve encountered during my career were individuals who were multi-dimensional in nature. They had excellent social skills, were involved in a variety of activities, and had a variety of talents. But, I didn’t work in the Silicon Valley either, so it’s possible that that part of the country is a whole different scenario. </p>
<p>I’m not so sure I’m sold on the concept of “gifted” students being destined for Harvard at the age of eight, even in the Silicon Valley.</p>
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<p>perhaps they also like big time college sports and/or they like better weather and would rather go to Stanford. Or, they like baskeball and find a certain coach K attractive. Or, they want to be a rocket scientist and CalTech and MIT are a better fit. Or, they want/need a free ride at say Olin, Emory or Rice. Or, a parent has a debilitating disease and the child wants to stay closer to home. Or, or, or, Doh!</p>
<p>collegehelp and mikey, what can I say…</p>
<p>Well, it’s obvious you have never worked at a school for gifted kids, such as the Nueva school in N.Calif., because remarks such as this- “has the child been DEPRIVED of the opportunity to do “normal” things because the parents overemphasized the importance of reading, intellectualism.” shows how little you know about some truly gifted students. There are many, many other intellectually brilliant students out there beyond the ones you have encountered in your career. Try opening you mind to that, and quit conjecturing what children you have no knowledge of or have never met "might 'prefer to do or “might” be deprived of.</p>
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<p>Old but wise, spare us the lectures and the antagonism! </p>
<p>It is blatantly obvious from your posts that your experience with students who target highly selective schools such as the Ivy League is nil. </p>
<p>Should we not read between the lines and comprehend: “In my thirty years of experience in working with thousands of students and parents, I can assure you that I never had any students with Ivy Obsession where I worked. I did not have any student who considered applying there!” </p>
<p>We have a name for posters who confuse opinions and opiniated behavior: ■■■■■■! And, fwiw, aren’t you the one who is a tad obsessed with the Ivy League? Feeling sad you did not counsel anyone who made it there?</p>
<p>Well, in my neighborhood parents are influenced by what they see kids do. The two top 10 -non HYP Ivy kids in my neighborhood both work in NYC finance jobs and everyone always talks about them, so everyone sees the example they set.</p>
<p>thank you xiggi. my feelings exactly.</p>
<p>Personally I never really felt a draw towards most of the ivies. I applied to princeton and dartmouth, and considered brown because they seemed the most focused on undergrad education. My parents didn’t pressure me towards the ivies at all, but I do think many of my peers sort of assumed that I applied there only because they were ivy league.</p>
<p>I will echo other posters by saying that many students are interested in ivies because they want a superb education and the opportunities associated with an ivy brand name. Considering the tangible benefits of the brand name I believe that it’s not horrible for kids to focus energy on getting into one of those schools. This is not to say that you cannot succeed at other schools by any means, but kids who set lofty goals for themselves are often (not always) better served by seeking an ivy league edumacation.</p>
<p>All things in moderation. Any obsession is unhealthy, but determination is not.</p>
<p>the sheer irony, of course, is that those most vocal about “Ivy Obsession” (which as an aside sounds like a really, really bad cologne from Calvin Klein, but I digress…) that those individuals are, sadly, the MOST obsessed with the Ivy League (but in a really bad, unhealthy way). </p>
<p>and so upon further analysis, it seems that these sanctimonious tirades (lectures) against the unhealthiness of obsessing over the Ivies is nothing more than a thinly veiled form of their own self-loathing. physician heal thyself.</p>
<p>Well put xiggi.</p>
<p>“Scipio: In my thirty years of experience in working with thousands of students and parents, I can assure you that Ivy Obsession didn’t just “come to the students” with whom I worked.”</p>
<p>Sure, not everyone shares the same obsession. My point was that it is human nature to be competitive, to be focused on the high achievement, to make ranking lists, to wonder who is on top, to dream of being on top, and so on.</p>
<p>Certainly some individuals don’t care at all about college admissions, but nearly everyone cares about excelling and succeeding. I defy you to name one significant human endeavor where there is not significant attention given to the question of who is on top. We are so competitive as a species that we even employ other species to compete for us by proxy in the form of dog shows, horse races, sheep dog trials, etc.</p>
<p>But you have taken this routine human competiveness in one field of endeavor, college admissions, and have declared it to be a disease. And your thesis seems to be that it’s all the fault of evil, pushy parents - that if children were left in their natural Garden of Eden state they would all spontaneously join hands a skip merrily off to their various best-fit colleges where they would live happily ever after - free from depression and eating disorders. </p>
<p>To which I must disagree. It’s pointless to ask questions about whether we should blame students or blame parents. We shouldn’t blame either; they are both just being human. As in all forms of human cometitiveness we should try moderate the harmful influences and promote the good. But you are wasting your time if you think you can stamp it out. It’s hardwired into us.</p>
<p>Why the rage against me? And the name-calling (■■■■■?)…what’s with that?
I’m not asking you to agree with me, but you don’t have to attack me, either.</p>
<p>In response to some of the posts above:</p>
<p>(1) During my 30-year career, I had MANY students who attended elite colleges. For some, the Ivies were an outstanding choice…especially for those who were looking to be academically challenged and to be among an exceptionally bright group of peers. On the other hand, I had students for whom the choice of an elite college was a disasterous decision. In those instances, their choice of an elite college was bad primarily due to two things:</p>
<p>(1) An Ivy was not the student’s choice…it was the PARENTS choice. The parents either pushed an Ivy onto their child or they "brainwashed their child from a young age, making them believe that an Ivy was the only way to go.</p>
<p>(2) The student, at a very young age, “locked into” the mode of thinking that an Ivy was the only way to go. They went through adolescence with blinders on, focusing only on Ivies while completely ignoring dozens of other colleges that might have been a better fit for them.</p>
<p>In one of the above posts, someone (I believe that it was the same person who called me a ■■■■■) speculated that my views are what they are because I wish I had had the opportunity to work with many more Ivy-type students than I did during my career. My response:</p>
<p>In my work with literally thousands of students over 30 years, I was as proud of the student who went on to attend a trade school for plumbing, as I was the student going to an Ivy to study astrophysics. I’m sincere when I say that. I obtained an equal amount of gratification working with the learning disabled student as with the gifted student. I saw as much good in the talented athlete as I did in the nerd. That’s why I chose counseling as a profession.</p>
<p>Scipio: Have you ever met a student whose Ivy-obsessed parents put so much pressure on them that they ended up depressed, anxious or with low self-esteem? </p>
<p>Do you believe the the disease of “Ivy-obsessionitis” is non-existent/ Would you be willing to acknowledge that at least some students are “victims” of this affliction.</p>
<p>Now…here’s the typical response that will appear in the next few posts:</p>
<p>“If a student is depressed, anxious or has low self-esteem, it’s not because of parents putting too much pressure on them to go to an Ivy.”</p>
<p>Let’s hear from you…</p>