Ivy Obsession: Does It Start With Students Or Parents?

[jnpn]

<p>

the choice of an elite college was a disastrous decision

</p>

<p>Don’t make that assessment unless you know how the student reacted to the ivy once attending. </p>

<p>

Do you believe the the disease of “Ivy-obsessionitis” is non-existent/ Would you be willing to acknowledge that at least some students are “victims” of this affliction.

</p>

<p>Some students are obsessed with going to an elite college. Some parents are obsessed with sending their child to an elite college. Worst case scenario, a student is reluctantly ambitious throughout high school. Quite frankly, I think both obsessions are less of a psychological problem than an obsession with stirring up arguments on a forum.</p>

[GAclassof2008]

<p>here we go again…another thread where everyone who makes a post “gangs up” on 1 person (who is entilted to her opinion, which your post will most likely not change…)</p>

<p>leave the lady alone, and ANSWER the OP… children? or parents? why?</p>

[jnpn]

<p>

here we go again…another thread where everyone who makes a post “gangs up” on 1 person (who is entilted to her opinion, which your post will most likely not change…)</p>

<p>leave the lady alone, and ANSWER the OP… children? or parents? why?

</p>

<p>It’s always the same thing, using a question as a springboard for an argument. I’ve seen you do the same thing numerous times. When old loses faith in his argument he stops posting in it. When you lose faith in it you say you were just doing it to mess with people.</p>

[xiggi]

<p>

In one of the above posts, someone (I believe that it was the same person who called me a ■■■■■) speculated that my views are what they are because I wish I had had the opportunity to work with many more Ivy-type students than I did during my career. My response:</p>

<p>In my work with literally thousands of students over 30 years, I was as proud of the student who went on to attend a trade school for plumbing, as I was the student going to an Ivy to study astrophysics. I’m sincere when I say that. I obtained an equal amount of gratification working with the learning disabled student as with the gifted student. I saw as much good in the talented athlete as I did in the nerd. That’s why I chose counseling as a profession.

</p>

<p>Yes, I am the one who called you a ■■■■■ and challenged the veracity of your “credentials.” This is not based solely on your posts in this thread but on the body of your contributions. </p>

<p>Your self-professed objective is to make people think about issues that you consider to be “buried” on CC. While admitting NOT to have read the bulk of the topics discussed in the past, you do not hesitate to hurl repeated accusations in the form of overly judgmental posts. And, all of this under the nebulous fig leave of a 30 year career as a college counselor.</p>

<p>And, fwiw, it is precisely because of your utterly visible agenda against elite schools that it is so easy to question your experience with highly competitive students. One must shudder at the thought of the fate of the poor parents entering your office with the “obsessive” objective of discussing little David or little Susan potential at an Ivy. </p>

<p>A counselor with a modicum of experience at that level should know better.</p>

[jnpn]

<p>

One must shudder at the thought of the fate of the poor parents entering your office with the “obsessive” objective of discussing little David or little Susan potential at an Ivy.

</p>

<p>Old–To answer you question from another thread, this is a reason why some families use private college counselors.</p>

[bigp9998]

<p>Relax, he/she doesn’t have an “agenda against elite schools”. Old is just saying that they are not the only schools out there. They are great fits for some people but not for all, and people who don’t go to Ivies shouldn’t have to feel like they are worse people than those who do.</p>

<p>Of course the Ivies are great schools. But they are not the perfect vision or the only place anybody should ever want to go. The CC culture simply makes it seem like anywhere else would be a major step down or some sort of catastrophe.</p>

[cellardweller]

<p>The reason why Old but Unwise (!) generates so much antagonism on CC is that he/she makes statements long on bias and short on facts. It is hard not to call him/her a ■■■■■ when every thread he/she starts is a variant on the same theme: anti-elitism, anti-intellectualism, anti-establishment. I think discussions on these issues can be fruitful when people bring some facts to the table for others to review and discuss. There are a number of highly knowledgeable contributors on CC and somehow OBU believes he/she can assert his views by starting as many threads as possible. But unlike most other contributors OBU has a distinctive approach which makes it more susceptible to criticism: state an opinion in the form of a question or new thread, support it with anecdotes and vague references to his authority as a counselor, leave the discussion when challenged on facts to only restart the nearly identical thread a few days later. There seems to be hope bordering on desperation that repetition will somehow translate into reality. There also seems to be an attempt to specifically target the newbies and uninformed still unaware of his tactics. Most of the people who have been on CC for a while don’t take him/her very seriously.</p>

<p>As a fairly recent member of CC, and having gone through the college admissions process with my D in the past year, I have found CC to be extremely valuable. On the other hand, I believe OBU to be very unhelpful in most discussions: distortions, lack of factual basis, simplifications, anecdotes, appeal to authority when everything else fails. I understand why any of his/her college counseling (if even real) was pro-bono. Nobody would have paid a penny for it.</p>

[GAclassof2008]

<p>and jnpn… you rarely answer the OPs question… usually you go off on some other topic/attacking scheme.</p>

[jnpn]

<p>

and jnpn… you rarely answer the OPs question… usually you go off on some other topic/attacking scheme.

</p>

<p>The discussion went beyond the initial question, as it often does. I was simply responding to a post that came later in the thread.</p>

[mythmom]

<p>oldbutwise: You encounter hostility not because of ypur post topics but because of the condescending, know-it-all tone you use. Your name says it all: wisdom is usually something others notice about us, not something we notice about ourselves. You might say the same for my name, but I don’t mean I’m mythic; I teach mythology among other things.</p>

<p>Yes, I agree with you that our society’s addiction to brand names is silly and potentially very destructive, more so with a college than a coach purse. However, you seem to have s set agenda that you promote without an openness to other points of view. The purpose of the forum should be to learn AND teach, not preach.</p>

<p>BTW: My son chose our piano, an $8,000 investment when he was six. We let him choose because he had been playing since he was four and is the pianist in the family. He chose Brown when he was eight. This year he was accepted into Brown, U of Chicago and Williams. Although he would have been happy at all of these schools, he chose Willaims even though no one knows about it or where it is, and he gets quearied, mostly by adults not involved in the college project, about how he could turn down big name schools. His parents left the decision to him and couldn’t be prouder of him.</p>

[entomom]

<p>cellardweller, thanks for coming up into the light and expressing what many of us feel but are not able to state as eloquently!</p>

<p>Perhaps we can all leave obu and GA to sort this out on their own, they seem like a perfect pair.</p>

[system]

<p>Btw, most people only know that Harvard Yale and Princeton are Ivies…the rest some people kind of know about, but aren’t as good as the top 3</p>

<p>Either way, I doubt the average student at HYP is measurably better than the average student at any other top 10 school academically. Its usually a factor of working harder in high school and caring more, whereas kids who get into other top 10 schools might have just worked less hard.</p>

[hotpiece101]

<p>well, i can actually say that I nor my parents were ever obsessed with the ivies when i was going through school. actually, up until senior year of high school, i actually hadn’t given much thought to where i was going to apply. all the ecs i did and the classes i took were more a product of my friends influence than my parents. and were done just to do them, not to fill a college application.</p>

<p>then, senior year i decided i would apply to one ivy: columbia. my parents, at the behest of my guidance counselor, suggested that i apply to harvard and yale for good measure. i reluctantly agreed and then also decided to apply to a few large state universities (for safeties) and some top-ranked liberal arts schools.</p>

<p>when i got into every school on my list (except yale), the ivy league obsession began. now everywhere i go, they introduce me as “the daughter that goes to harvard.” </p>

<p>and now my little sister, a freshman in high school, is feeling tremendous pressure from both my parents, my old high school (i was the first student in history to get into harvard, so the teachers are always comparing us), and her own sense of competition. not only has it had a negative effect on her high school life (everything she does is with the end game of getting into harvard- this is partially due to my parents but also partially her own agenda), but it has also hurt our relationship (there is always this competition between us, now. she feels like she has to constantly prove to our parents and her teachers that she is just as good as i am). </p>

<p>ivy league obsession is sort of sad. and now that i have seen it first hand, it will not be something i inflict upon my own children.</p>

[panda_chibi]

<p>

…you do not hesitate to hurl repeated accusations in the form of overly judgmental posts.

…the condescending, know-it-all tone you use.

I cannot be the only one who finds these statements ironic. (These remind me of most of the people in my English class this past year… Incessantly complaining that the reason they hate Holden Caulfield is because he complains incessantly… And to top off those complaints, they go on and complain about how terribly horrible their lives are because their parents won’t buy them $200 dollars worth of clothes every weekend…)</p>

<p>I decided to look through OWB’s threads/posts, to see if s/he seems to have a tirade against the Ivy League. Here’s what I found: Not really. Sure, s/he may have a slight inclination against the schools (even that is a stretch, to me), but OBW also states that the Ivy League school are obviously great ones. S/He is just saying that they aren’t the be all end all. Status isn’t everything. Ivies offer tremendou oppurtunites not found at other schools… But the opposite can also be true. That’s all s/he is trying to say. </p>

<p>And I don’t find much condescention in OBW’s posts. At least, no more than the average person has when s/he speaks… And most people have a slight condescention… I mean, people believe their opinions are correct and that other peoples are incorrect (even if they strongly agree that other people are entitled to their opinions). Or else they wouldn’t be their opinions.</p>

<p>And GAclassof2008: I beg of you: stop it. I understand you’re to trying to defend OBW and your own opinions, but you’re coming on MUCH too strong. You are being condescending. You’re like the fanatical conservatives that damn everyone to hell and give Christians a bad name… Ok, a bit of an exaggeration. But do you get my point? Please, try to be a bit more diplomatic, a bit more objective.</p>

<p>Disclaimer: I apologise if any of that came off as condescending. I really didn’t mean it to if it did. I have this problem with speaking with condescention. I try to work on it… and I believe I’m getting better, but it’s a problem I’ve had my whole life. It really annoys me, because it sets people up to get mad at me…and I don’t really want that.</p>

[panda_chibi]

<p>GAclassof2008: This is what I mean. You respond by antagonising. And you don’t even antagonise with some sort of (ever-so-slightly) logical argument, but with name-calling and yelling… That gets you nowhere. All it does is make people mad at you. Do you want that?</p>

<p>Same disclaimer</p>

[old_but_wise]

<p>jnpn: In response to your post #43:</p>

<p>(1) My conclusions of the Ivies, for certain students, being a “disasterous decision” were indeed based on how the student reacted after he/she was enrolled. I did, however, have many whose experiences were very positive.</p>

<p>(2) Your comment that “Worst case scenario, a student is reluctantly ambitious throughout high school” is way off target. Examples of worst case scenarios I witnessed from students who were pressured by their parents to attend Ivies are as follows:</p>

<ul>
<li> Mental health problems: anxiety, depression, low self-esteem, etc.</li>
<li> Ruined student/parent relations: I had students who actually grew to dislike their parents as a result of parental pressure. The student goes off college feeling that way toward his/her parents…sometimes this adversity continues permanently. No parent wants to alienate him/herself from their child.</li>
<li>Students, applying to Ivies only to appease their parents, intentionally sabotaging their chances of getting accepted by turning in Ivy applications of poor quality.</li>
<li>Teens, continuously given the message by their parents that attending an Ivy is the only route to success in life, go off to college feeling like a failure if they were unable to gain Ivy admission and therefore had to go to a “lesser” college.</li>
</ul>

<p>One of the most interesting experiences was having parents sitting in my office in tears because, "WE were denied by every Ivy WE applied to. (Notice that these parents used the word “WE”, not “my son or daughter.”
Interestingly, in most of those types of cases the parent wanted an Ivy much more than the student, and the students typically handled Ivy denials much better than their parents.</p>

<p>Unless you’ve been on the “front lines” of college admission, it’s hard to fully appreciate what I’m talking about.</p>

[old_but_wise]

<p>Further…I’d like to comment on the nastiness directed toward me in these posts:</p>

<p>For a supposedly intelligent group of people (highly educated, value elite colleges, work with gifted students, etc.), I am disappointed to see that you have to resort to calling me names like ■■■■■, old but unwise, etc. For the adolescents on here, you are setting a bad example. The message you are giving them is this: If you disagree with someone because their views may be drastically different from yours, it’s ok to bash them and make derogatory remarks toward them.</p>

<p>Please…let’s keep this conversation civil and let’s set a good example of how to handle situations in which you disagree with someone’s view.</p>

<p>Thanks.</p>

[jym626]

<p>Ahah! I think I have it figured out! OBW is trying to make people feel bad about pursuing the Ivies in the hopes that he can convince more CC students not to apply, and his pro bono clients then have less competition for those prized Ivy slots! Very clever!</p>

[jnpn]

<p>

Unless you’ve been on the “front lines” of college admission, it’s hard to fully appreciate what I’m talking about.

</p>

<p>I live in one of the most ivy-obsessed areas of the country. I went to a school that sends a third to a half of the students to ivies. I know this situation more than you think. Oddly enough, the majority of the students I knew who were diagnosed with depression were the ones with parents apathetic to the level of achievement of their children. Yes, achievement. These “obsessive” parents aren’t obsessed with ivies, they are obsessed with achievement.</p>

<p>To put it in simpler terms, you are essentially badmouthing the parent that tries to get their kid to eat broccoli, when there are parents out there letting their kids eat candy for meals. I have nothing else to say.</p>

[cellardweller]

<p>OBW:</p>

<p>It is hard to take you seriously when you have nothing but scorn for the entire CC boards you claim to contribute to:</p>

<p>Posted 6/11

If she’s on CC, get her off of it ASAP. Have her avoid it like the plague!

or
Posted 6/7

but much of what I see on CC contains misinformation and is largely based on opinion (with biases included) that is particularly schewed (sic) in favor of the more prestigious colleges.

</p>

<p>Why this OBSESSION with the Ivies and elite colleges and starting the same post over and over again?</p>

<p>Thread started 3/29

Parents: "Come Clean…Let Others Learn From Your Mistakes </p>

<p>I am particularly interested in knowing whether there is anyone willing to admit that you were overly involved in the process, pushed for YOUR college choices, focused too much on the “elite” colleges, put too much pressure on your adolescent, etc.

</p>

<p>Thread started 6/2

Teens Too Caught Up In Whole College Thing?</p>

<p>Also, why do you think students become so obsessed with getting into a prestigious college?

</p>

<p>Thread started 6/15

Are Parents Pushing Too Hard? </p>

<p>In my thirty years as a college counselor (now retired), I saw a variety of parenting styles in the college selection and admission processes. Over that period of time, the number of parents wanting their child to get into an “elite” college seemed to grow with each passing year. By the time I retired, it was clearly the worst I had ever seen it.

</p>

<p>Thread started 6/18

Ivy Obsession: Does It Start With Students Or Parents? </p>

<p>Many students and parents, especially those on CC, seem to be absolutely obsessed with Ivy-type schools. In families where “Ivy Obsessionitis” (my term for obsession with elite colleges) exists, did this “phenomenon” begin with the parents or their children?

</p>

<p>Under the guise of starting threads you seem to only be seeking a vehicle to push your mantra: </p>

<p>Posted 6/7

Let’s not use info like that on this post to draw the conclusion that Harvard is better than “State U.”!

</p>

<p>or</p>

<p>Posted 6/11

Most CC’ers are OBSESSED with the elite schools, and don’t pay attention to the other 95% of colleges out there. Most of the talk is about places like HYPSM, or schools of that type.

</p>

<p>or </p>

<p>Posted 6/13

In your communities and schools, are you seeing this phenomenon whereby the parent seems to want an “elite” college more than the student?

</p>

<p>Why the silly anecdotes rather than some facts:</p>

<p>

Posted 6/2
(a) The Ivy-type girl, who went to “Average State U” because it was a better fit for what she was looking for in a college, who got into FIVE medical schools.</p>

<p>(b) The Ivy-type boy, who went to “Average State U” because of cost, who got into a top Ivy Law School</p>

<p>(c) The intelligent “go-getter” with great analytical skills, who went to “above average private liberal arts college,” who is now with a top investment banking firm on Wall Street.</p>

<p>(d) The Ivy-type boy, who turned down two Ivies and went to “Large State U,” who got his Ph.D. at MIT.</p>

<p>I could go on with story after story after story.

</p>

<p>Please spare us the tear jerkers and your relentless use of your supposed 30 year counseling experience to support every weak argument.</p>

<p>Posted 6/2

but based on having worked with thousands of students over thirty years, and seeing the results first hand, I firmly stand by what I say.

</p>

<p>

I spent 30 years as a college counselor, and can tell you that your situation is not all that unique.

</p>

<p>Posted 6/4

I spent 30 years as a college counselor (now retired).

</p>

<p>Posted 6/5

I worked as a college counselor in a public school for 30 years, and my students gained admission to all of the same colleges as anyone else.

</p>

<p>Posted 6/5

Even though I spent thirty years in the field of education, I never quite “got” the whole concept of Boarding Schools.

</p>

<p>Posted 6/19/07

Unless you’ve been on the “front lines” of college admission, it’s hard to fully appreciate what I’m talking about.

</p>

<p>Are you really surprised to be called a ■■■■■? What is a ■■■■■ anyway? Here are some of the characteristics I have accumulated from 30 years working in the computer industry from when the Internet was just the Darpanet. Let me tell you, unless you have been in the front lines chasing ■■■■■■ it is hard to tell a ■■■■■ from a regular poster. </p>

<p>a) A ■■■■■ is relentless
b) A ■■■■■ is interested in only one topic
c) A ■■■■■ loves to create controversy
d) A ■■■■■ cannot be convinced with facts as his position cannot be changed
e) When faced with a superior counterargument a ■■■■■ goes underground
f) A ■■■■■ is deeply insecure and really wants to be liked
g) A ■■■■■ will always deny he is a ■■■■■
h) When found out a ■■■■■ will disappear for a while only to come back later as his desire to ■■■■■ is addictive</p>

<p>Let us hear from the rest of posters on CC. Is OBW a ■■■■■ or is he genuinely interested in helping the masses make the right college choice? Is he right that sites like CC are just feeding the obsession with elite colleges or is he just ignorant because he went to State U. and his kids to 3rd tier colleges? Let us open the mikes to the pushy parents and obsessed students. OBW really wants your input. He feels really bad to be called a ■■■■■ and if he is seen as a ■■■■■ nobody will pay attention to his posts any more and nobody will buy his latest book. “How I got in to Harvard Law from community college”.</p>

<p>Thanks in advance</p>