“There may be some guys propping up other guys as you say, but resolving the issue lies mostly with women.”
I don’t even know where to start with this comment. “May be” ? I think we have ample examples of the thin bro line sheltering inappropriate behaviors because bros gotta stick together. “Resolving the issue” ? It’s not an issue, it’s a crime. Assault is a crime. Toxic workplace is a crime. Grooming is a crime. “Mostly with women”? how? what is it we aren’t doing that would protect our daughters and ourselves from men who can’t not comment on our bodies, touch us, assault us, demote us, deny us, erase us? Seriously, what is it you think women should do?
While we don’t know yet, my guess is that Summers’ slimy play was legal and not against university policy. That is what I was addressing, not any suspected crime that was committed.
“The issue” I spoke of was the enablement of predators like Summers. Women choose which genes get perpetuated, not men. I am like most guys in that I was never part of the small bro culture, so how can men as a group stop this?
What does this mean? Are you saying that it’s the fault of women that slimy men are brought into this world? That there’s something that they should or should not do when their sons are in utero to avoid spawning misogynistic sons?
These behaviors are at least partially heritable, so avoiding mating in the first place would be ideal. But more importantly, and in the here and now (back to my original point), if the behavior of Summers and others like him never worked, they wouldn’t be acting like that.
A huge number of women are doing just this…deliberately having only one child or often none at all. Many have decided they don’t ever want to marry. Have you noticed the blowback-all of which is about women? They’re selfish. They should be trad wives. No one would want to procreate with them anyway. This list goes on.
My kids are 30 and 33, both with huge social circles. Only a handful of their friends have kids. I have 9 nieces and nephews over 30. Only 4 of them are having kids. In my own large circle of friends, I am the only one who has grandkids.
Women are, in fact, exercising their ability to stem control that men have over them now and also the flow of future misogynists.
Now I think you must be intentionally baiting posters here, otherwise the only explanation is that you have a stunning lack of understanding of psychology, power dynamics, grooming, manipulation, brainwashing, gaslighting …etc, etc, etc.
Men, as a group, could universally and unequivocally condemn violence against women, cast out men who are misogynist, censure men who objectify women, embrace a diversity of gender roles for men and women and generally not put up with the bs being advanced other men. All of that, without any whataboutism, mansplaining, or waffling.
As you said, if it didn’t work, they wouldn’t do it. Where were the Harvard guy’s confidants? CYA is so 1940. Next time somebody says Kamala slept her way into office, or Megyn Kelly says 15 is nearly legal, MEN in their workplace push back hard. MEN in public say sorry, you aren’t our guy then. MEN teach their sons what is unacceptable,period.
H & I raised our S to respect women. When he was older and encountered friends objectifying women, he was shocked by their lack of respect. His friends’ parents weren’t terrible people. H & I worked in manufacturing, and we were both exposed to blatant misogyny - I was often the recipient of unwelcome actions & comments; he heard stories from me & other female coworkers. As a result, raising our S a certain way was a very conscious decision. We had believed that society was beginning to change over the past 3+ decades since our kids were born, but it either hasn’t or it was but it’s backsliding.
@OhiBro here’s a solid example of what I mean from the news.
On AirForce One, the President said “quiet, piggy” to a female Bloomsburg pool reporter. At that point, one of the other reporters, or several of the pool reporters, could have said “Mr President that’s not appropriate” or “Mr President, please don’t speak to our colleague that way”
Instead, they all chose to be silent. This is how a culture that permits abuse thrives. If the smallest, most simple acts are not automatic, how could more difficult acts be expected? If men can insult women with impunity, how far away is physical abuse?
I read the article posted in Post #36. It seems to me the young woman was attempting a professional relationship – maybe mentor/mentee, but at least professional. Summers could only see the relationship in sexual terms. (Someone correct me if I misread the article.) This is a very very typical point of view of men of a certain age – they view any interaction between men and women as having sexual undertones.
It’s up to men, not to women. You can hold each other accountable, or not. Many women are doing the work of speaking up and , as you said, being much more selective about what they will tolerate in a partner. Men are equally capable of changing the climate if they choose to. If they choose not to, that tells us plenty about them.
Share more about this comment. Are you saying men aren’t going to speak up? Men shouldn’t have to speak up? Men and women should speak up? Or no one should speak up because “President” or whatever?
To clarify, Megyn Kelly didn’t say age 15 was “nearly legal”, she said it was “barely legal”, to make her comment even grosser. Apparently she thinks age 15 is legal to abuse children at.
Exactly. People don’t stand up to bullies, lest they be bullied themselves. So it persists and is reinforced. And when the bully is occasionally called out even diplomatically, the bully often then engages in narcissistic injury and plays the wounded victim.
There has been a longstanding social schism, labelling/perceiving assertive men as strong and decisive, but an assertive woman is often perceived as bossy, aggressive or a < fill in the word for a female dog here>
I find that there are many younger men (and some older ones too I’m sure) who are challenging the current climate - who speak out against abuse, who are not embarrassed to say that they’re feminists, or that they value equality and compassion.
They are rewarded for their empathy with monikers like “soy boy” and “soft boy” and everyone’s favorite, the “performative male”.
Meanwhile, a certified billionaire Master of the Universe (Larry Summers) is so utterly devoid of charm and charisma that he needs detailed coaching from a certified pedophile on how to seduce his mentee?
If that last sentence sounds like a mad lib, I would say it’s an appropriate assessment of these idiotic times.
I had trouble reading the article because it suddenly started popping up faux virus alerts. But when I have seen situations like these in the workplace, one of the sad things to me is that if anything sexual does occur (or even if it just looks that way to others, for example if she doesn’t manage to stop the guy from flirting with her), the woman then gets a reputation of “sleeping her way to the top” and her professional competence is discounted.
Many in the group were so sure of their position as to brand me a t**** and a moron, so “good luck” means just that. I hope that approach works. But it never has.
The issue is that it doesn’t for a while, and people think it’s not worth it, and give up at that point.
But bullies fall, as do so many other things, imperceptibly at first, and then all at once—but it takes continued effort to get to the “all at once”.
And in these sorts of cases, yeah, the men have, by and large, been slacking. (And many have not just been slacking, but acting counterproductively—see @admmda’s point just a couple posts upthread.)