JHU vs UPitt for premed

Hello, currently a mom of a senior who is deciding between JHU and UPitt honors for premed. Here are some pros and cons we discussed for each school

UPitt
pros:

  • CMU is nearby (highly ranked research institution)
  • top ranked hospitals are close by (only a couple minutes by walk)
  • Honors program offers research opportunity immediately and opens up other opportunities for research
  • has good club + ec opportunities (not too competitive)
  • Study abroad is nice there
  • got a scholarship
  • loves the campus/social scene
  • no grade deflation

Cons:

  • not as prestigious (sends significantly less people-proportionally-to med school, especially top ranked ones)
  • from our research, JHU people tend to get into the more highly ranked med schools whereas we’ve only found one or two people from upitt that have gotten into those med schools

JHU:
Pros:

  • very accessible research opportunities
  • smaller class sizes
  • very prestigious and sends a large proportion of people (80%) to med school
  • easier to get internship opportunities at prestigious locations (she talked to quite a few people and heard through almost every person. she says this would make her more competitive for top medical schools)
  • premed advisors are very good
  • likes the competitive environment and doesn’t think she can find a competitive environment like this in pitt

Cons:

  • very bad grade deflation – she doesn’t know if she can do well because she is not sure how her intelligence compares to JHU people
  • did not like the campus as much but she thinks the people there are fine so she doesn’t mind very much (and she doesn’t want to take it into account for now)
  • many people tend to take multiple gap years or even do a masters program to make up for bad gpas, which she wants to avoid

Also, just as a conclusion:

She is mostly scared that she can’t get prestigious opportunities in locations other than Pittsburgh if she goes to UPitt whereas at JHU she is more likely to get them. However, with JHU’s prestige, she is more inclined towards that. She still carries a lot of worries about her grade however, given the number of people who have had to go to great lengths in order to make up for their gpa. She wants to get in at a top medical program and only thinks she can do that at JHU.

The name of her undergrad college will not significantly move the needle in terms of medical school acceptances.

Why does she feel she needs to go to a top medical school (a decision that is several years away…and she might change her mind).

@WayOutWestMom can provide more detail.

Your daughter should attend the college where she feels she will do the best, and be happy. She will need to be at the top of her game at either of these universities.

Pittsburgh has a LOT of medical facilities. That isn’t an issue.

Johns Hopkins is also a great school.

I’m assuming both are affordable? Keep in mind that should she get accepted to medical school, it will likely cost $100,000 a year.

4 Likes

I have a family member who recently graduated from an MD/PhD program at a very prestigious university. Students were accepted from all kinds of schools (I realize your D wants medical school and not an MD/PhD).

My daughter had a summer research position at a very prestigious research hospital. Again, students were accepted from all kinds of schools- not just those that are highly ranked.

As noted, your daughter should attend the school she likes and feels she will do well in. I would also consider the cost of medical school.

3 Likes

First of all, how do you define “top medical program”? Most of the former top 25 ranked med schools refuse to share their data with USNews so any ranking they assign is guesswork at best.
(USNews used to use NIH funding $$ as a proxy for prestige, but look at what’s happening in the US right now. The NIH has cancelled $2Billion in research grants. in the last month. Harvard’s med school is in dire financial straits, laying off staff and shutting down programs. Other med schools are too.)

If you ask 10 medical professionals what are the top 10 med schools, you’ll get 30 different answers.

So the question is, why does she need a “top medical program” and what does she mean by that? Different medical schools have different purposes and missions. An applicant needs to match the mission of the school.

What kind of career does she envision for herself?

Does she want to be a professor at a med school? Professors come from a wide variety of med schools. Even from unranked and osteopathic med schools.

Does she want to enter a highly competitive specialty? (Like orthopedic surgery, ENT, ophthalmology, urology, plastic surgery, neurosurgery, dermatology)? Again, med students enter those specialties from a very wide variety of medical schools, including unranked and osteopathic med schools.

Does she want to go into healthcare administration? Again, those doctors from a broad range of MD and DO programs enter that path.

Does she want go into public health? Healthcare policy? See my previous answers.

Either of undergrads she considering will offer her all the opportunities she needs to apply to medical school-- yes, even “top” ones, assuming her GPA, MCAT, LORs, ECS, personal statements and application essays are good enough and fit the mission of the medical school. It’s up to her to make the best use she can of the opportunities she finds.

Also, please consider that no matter how sure your daughter is right now that she wants to go to med school, the odds say she will never even apply.

An analysis of data from over 100 US universities showed that only about 17% of freshmen premeds even finish all the pre-reqs. Not necessarily because they don’t do well in the classes, but because they find another career that is a better match for their interests and values. Of those 17% who do finish their pre-reqs, about half have GPAs that make them credible applicants for med school. Of those that actually apply to med school, only 40% get an acceptance.

So put med school aside and focus on which school offers your D the best combination of

  • fit (happier students do better academically. Also it’s 4 years of her life she will never get back and there’s no reason those years should be miserable.)
  • cost (med school is already $100K/year at some schools and costs go up every year. Pre meds are strongly advised to minimize undergrad debt.)
  • opportunity (including the opportunity to pivot to another career, the opportunity to make connections with her professors who will eventually write her LORS for graduate or professional school and for jobs and internships, the opportunity to grow as an individual by meeting & interacting with people who are different from herself in race, ethnicity, religion, political affiliation, values and interests, socio-economic backgrounds, etc. As a doctor, her patients will come in all shapes, sizes, colors, socio-economic statuses, and personal belief systems. She needs to be prepared to deal with all of them.)
9 Likes

Is this really a pro ? I mean, you could take a class but you are a Pitt student, not a CMU student. It is a pro that Pitt is a highly ranked AND respected research institution.

Then you say JHU sends a large portion to med school…yet suffers from grade inflation. That’s, in some ways, contradictory. And it’s likely selection bias - as the average student at JHU is academically superior to Pitt (entrance wise, statistically speaking) and they likely have a higher percentage of kids interested in med school from the get go whereas Pitt is more a traditional university.

To me, this comes down to a few things:

  1. Budget - always budget - and you have to plan not just for these four years, but another $400K for medical school. You don’t want loans now. Make sure you can afford - because loans are bad and likely for med school but you want less if possible of course.

  2. Pittsburgh (having the city) vs. Baltimore - maybe utilizing the city less vs. having it right there.

  3. Do you want big time sports - Pitt has.

  4. If medical doesn’t work out - then what? Where’s the better school for the student.

No doubt, most, assuming finances are equal, would pick JHU given its rank, etc. and that might be the right choice for some or many or most but those above are some things to think about.

As for, you go to a top school to be a medical stud - I don’t know. I did some research so have posted this mutliple times. It’s about residencies - but look at where residents of these hospitals, including JHU, did their undergrad. So does the name really matter?

  1. I was a patient at Vandy in Radiology - and here’s where the residents went to school (first two year residents):

Auburn
CWRU
Florida A&M
Florida State
Fordham
Lipscomb
Luther
Murray State
Northern Illinois
Pitt
Princeton
Tulane
Tuskegee
U North Carolina
U Puerto Rico
U Tennessee

Duke Medical - this was just the early letters of the last names of the alphabet

Arkansas
Michigan
UNC
Princeton
Rochester
South Florida
Southeastern Louisiana
Texas

Taking it further to Johns Hopkins - resident undergrads:

JHU
UMD
UMBC
U Miami
Morgan State
South Carolina
TCNJ
U of Puerto Rico
UT Dallas
Towson
Vandy
and more

Good luck.

@FunMom24 it really doesn’t matter where doctors at any hospital got their undergrad degrees. What matters is where YOUR student will feel happy to be for four years, and where they feel they will do their best for four years.

Both Pitt and JHU are fine options for those hoping to enter careers in health care fields.

4 Likes

The average entering age of med school matriculants is 24. It is difficult for students coming out of undergrad (even those with high GPAs and MCATS) to compete with students who have two years post-undergrad of direct patient clinical experience.

Schools selectively choose how to calculate this number, and some can be quite misleading. How do they calculate this number? What’s included in the numerator and denominator? Does it include MD applicants only? DO too? Those who applied to offshore schools? Do the numbers include only recent graduates or all who attended undergrad there, regardless of grad date? Are students who’ve taken a postbacc or SMP included in the numbers? Does the school gatekeep applicants by using a committee letter? (JHU does, at Pitt it’s not required.)

Pitt premed classes will be tough, and students will be competing for high grades. There are many very smart students at Pitt.

I echo what others said. Your D should go to the school that she likes the best, and where she will do well. She will need to be at the top of the class to be successful in med school apps and it’s unlikely she will be going to med school right out of undergrad either way. You didn’t say if your D has had direct patient experience yet (as CNA, EMT, hospice volunteer) but if not it’s even less likely she will even end up applying to med school.

5 Likes

I vote JHU
congratulations to your daughter!!!

I strongly suggest taking premed out of the equation. This student can become a successful doctor just about everywhere once they complete their schooling.

Both Pitt and JHU are great schools for those wishing to enter health care. We have family members who are graduates of both. They all are very successful (and yes, in health care fields).

And frankly, their undergrad college is the least important component. It’s their step scores, shelf scores, MCAT, ECs needed to apply to medical school, GPA, sGPA, LOR, and interview that matter.

Those things will position them for a residency which is what matters more.

@WayOutWestMom

1 Like

Seriously, when was the last time you looked up where your doctor went to med school, much less undergrad? Likely never.

The most important bit of information about your doctor is whether or not they accept your health insurance plan or are within your referral network.

@thumper1 is right. Where you go the undergrad is among the least important factors when applying to med school. (And you don’t need to believe me. See p 15 of https://www.aamc.org/media/18901/download. There’s a survey of actual adcomm officers who rate undergrad selectivity as among the least important factors considered when selecting applicants to interview and admit to med school.)

7 Likes

1000% agree that the name is FAR less important than the other factors for sucess in medicine and in leading a happy and fulfilling life.

I practiced in a different field in healthcare for 40 years. Spent a lot of time with patients. Never, to my recollection, did any patient ever tell me they looked up my credentials (well, some diplomas were on my wall, but don’t recall any standing up and perusing them). The only time my undergrad ever came up (and yes it had name recognition and did seem to give me some cred) were during depositions or court testimony (some of my work involved medico-legal issues).

3 Likes

I wrote about this above, but I have more say.

A student in my daughter’s cohort did her undergrad at Pitt. I just went back and read her bio….and what your daughter is scared of is simply not true. I already knew this but wanted to learn what this student accomplished.

She should choose the school she likes and where she will thrive. Opportunities will be on her and what she seeks out.

6 Likes

I agree with all the others suggesting for premed purposes, institutional prestige really is not an important factor, but how well you do in your classes very much can be.

I would also echo that you should take any serious cost differences into account.

And then I would just emphasize I think any premed at this point should think seriously about where they would want to be going for college if they end up deciding not to go to medical school. That in fact is what is going to happen to the vast majority of people who start as premeds, including at the “good for premed” colleges. Some will struggle with the courses, but others will just learn about other paths and decide they would prefer something else.

Fortunately both of these colleges will support many different educational and career paths. But I would also think about which overall four-year college experience I thought I would prefer.

5 Likes