Jimmy Carter: Israeli Apartheid - the liberal view.

misterflyer1997 · December 19, 2006, 5:54pm

Some Palestinians may have negotiated and talked with the Nazis. So did some Jewish groups like the Irgun and the Lehi. They were trying to convince the Nazis that the way to fix the Jewish Problem was by sending them to Palestine. To argue that somehow Palestinians were responsible for the Holocaust is tantamount to saying the Swiss were because of Swiss banks. Your saying that Israel was put where it was because Palestinians were involved in the Holocaust is such a bad argument. The Swiss should have been punished with a state equal to that size, and God knows what the Germans should have faced, seeing they were the main if not sole initiators of it.

I NEVER discussed the refugee problem, I was merely answering someone else’s question. Now I’ll turn it around on you and ask you a question. Give me a set of enumerated reasons as to way Israel has a right to exist in its present location, so anything from 1947-1948 onward is logically irrelevant because we are discussing the creation of that state.

Mauser · December 19, 2006, 5:55pm

Misterflyer, you mentioned 95% of Jews in Israel were of European orgin. I am sorry, but after the creation of Israel and the influc of refugees from the Arab and African countries more than 50% of the Jews were of Sephardic or Mizrahi orgin.

You are right Jews did leave willingly. They faced death and they wilingly left to avoid death. They also willingly left all of their property too. Misterflyer, lets not distort things. Jews left the Arab countries eaither because they were expleled or from a real and tangible fear for their lives or livlihood. There is no two ways about it. Simply there isnt.

What the Lavon Affair has to do with the issue at hand, I have no idea. The Lavon Affair was a serious of sabatoge and terror attacks conducted by the Mossad under the guise of Egyptian terrorists in order to garner support against Egypt for its flagrant violations of international law post Israeli independance. Throwing out terms with the words “affair” will not do anything to advance your argument.

As for moving Israel, that is purely ridiculous.

Your ignorance astounds me. A “second holocaust”. The Arabs have had 7 wars with Israel and they have only hurt themselves more than Israel. Israel is a thriving county. Egypt, Syria, Jordan, Lebanon, Iraq, Iran, Libya, are all bastions of hate and opression. I systematically proved to you why Israel has a right to exist as a viable Jewish State. I systematically proved to you why it hs a right to exist in the Middle East. I even used YOUR logic to do so. You feel Europe should shoulder the repsonsibility of Israel because of WWII and the holocaust and so I showed you Arab complicity. So then you moved on to some other nonsensical claim. As for the UN and the EU condemning Israel all the time. That to me is irrelevant. The UN controlled by a violent Arab, Muslim, and African bloc will do alot to harm Israel. Thier rantinsare irrelvant. The EU, in the search to appease their own Arabs and to have cheap oil, will also do thier own ranting. You cite Ghand against Israel. Well, Ghandi also told Jews to march to their deaths in the holocaust because thats what God intended to happen. He told them to not resist and not fight back (like the Warsaw Ghettor Revolt). You judgge for yourself how much credibility Ghandi has on Israel.

I am sorry if this sounds harsh in any way. You are a bigot, an anti-semite who disguises his hate for Jews with his hate for Israelis, who incidentally, for the most part happen to be Jewish.

After putting you to shame with your own logic, I feel a discussion on this issue of Israeli existance is as useless as discussing Ahmidenijads solution to the problem. That is because both of you have the same solution. Most reasonable people harbor the idea of a two-state solution. And I promise you that I probably differ from Allmusic on the means to achieve that end. And I probably differ from Ari on what means will meet than end. And then again, maybe not. However, I do see an end. I do see a two-state solution. Where there will be a Jewish State, secure and in peace, side by side with another Arab state.

Mauser · December 19, 2006, 6:02pm

“Some Palestinians may have negotiated and talked with the Nazis. So did some Jewish groups like the Irgun and the Lehi. They were trying to convince the Nazis that the way to fix the Jewish Problem was by sending them to Palestine. To argue that somehow Palestinians were responsible for the Holocaust is tantamount to saying the Swiss were because of Swiss banks. Your saying that Israel was put where it was because Palestinians were involved in the Holocaust is such a bad argument. The Swiss should have been punished with a state equal to that size, and God knows what the Germans should have faced, seeing they were the main if not sole initiators of it.”

The role Zionists had with the Nazis were minimal. The Nazis proposed a plan to the allies where they would allow a tiny amount of Jews to immigrate to Palestine and in return the allies would give the Nazis war supplies. The Nazis tried to transmit this first to Jewish leaders because of the pycological impact of the offer. To do so, a Nazi representative traveled to Turkey to meet with the some Jewish leaders. He never did meet with them however. Irgun and Lehi meanwhile never collaborated with the Nazis. The Irgun movement actively fought on the side of the British AGAINST the Nazis. Lehi, however, found both Britain and Germany to be unacceptable.

I am not arguging that the Palestinians ere responsible for the holocaust, I have proven to you that they collaborated and supported the German holocaust and war effort. For this they should be punished. For G-d’s sake, the President of the National Palestinian Council, Hussieni, was declared a war crimminal by Nuremberg. This man actively collaborated with the Nazis and organized Arab units to fight against the allies in WWII. You are becoming ridiculous.

UCLAri · December 19, 2006, 6:54pm

I never said that you did. So your critique falls on its face.

You’d be surprised. Don’t assume things, sir.

Actually, while I’m Jewish, my reasons for supporting Israel are not due to a Jewish identity, but American interests. Don’t assume things.

And? This makes it somehow the right thing? China has been vetoing resolutions on Darfur. Does this mean that China’s right?

Logical fallacy. Just because something else is happening to other groups doesn’t validate the attacks on Jews. Nor does it mean that I’m not not supportive of a Kurdistan, a Roma homeland (which may or may not be possible), and greater rights for American blacks (who probably have no desire for their own country.)

To be fair, Nuremberg was a bit of a kangaroo court…

misterflyer1997 · December 19, 2006, 8:03pm

Mauser, as expected, you go to the Anti-Semite card while calling Arabs violent and hateful. And you haven’t given clear reasons for why Israel should exist. Give me 4 simple reasons.

misterflyer1997 · December 19, 2006, 8:15pm

Mauser, very interesting, you call Hamas a terrorist group and then admit that Mossad used terrorism for their own means. You call me an Anti-Semite although I never insulted Jewish people while you blanketly condemn all the other nations in the area. I am not anti-Semite, but you are definitely Islamophobic or Anti-Arab or w/e. You constantly name-call and I say nothing. Where’s a MOD when you need one?

mommusic · December 19, 2006, 8:22pm

Oh, now it has to be 4 reasons? Harsh.

misterflyer, why should you exist? The point is, you do, and no one has the right to stop that existence. And you shouldn’t have to justify it.

People of good will on both sides can agree that both States can and should exist. I believe that most people in the area, Palestinians and Israelis alike, want peace. Terrorists are the problem; powers that want war by proxy are the problem, and if you, sir, are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

mommusic · December 19, 2006, 8:24pm

mister, if you can’t see that wanting to totally END the “Zionist entity” (so sorry, might be a 2nd Holocaust, well, that’s sad but too bad) doesn’t insult the Jewish people, you are not to be reasoned with.

And when you lose an argument you call for the Mods.

Mauser · December 19, 2006, 9:50pm

I do not need 4 reasons why Israel should exist. 4 or 5 or 3 or 2 or 1 is not a litmus test for why a country deserves statehood. But here is the truth:

As for why the Jews deserved a country in Palestine, with out referencing religion, history, and facts on the ground or the fact that the Jews are a nation with their own cultures, history, language, ethics, religion, and traditions? Well, the Jews moved to a barren and economically worthless wasteland, displacing practically no one, they moved to a land where the people, as small in numbers as they were, had no nationalistic aspirations, in fact they had no real infrastructure. After building a viable sustaining community, the Jews constituted an ethnic and nationalistic majority in an area completely apart from the Arab rot surrounding the Jewish cities. Thus they had their case for statehood.

Misterflyer, the Lavon Affair was a mistake. It was however, a terror of a different kind. In no way are Hamas and the Mossad in the Lavon Affair comparabe. The Mossad agents acted clandestinely against an agressor nation which had repeatadley violated international law against Israel. The mossad agents in the Lavon affair killed no one and their damage was minimal. Do I support actions like that? No. But I can certainly see why they did it. Egypt was an agressor nation blocking waterways, openly and explicitly calling for the destruction of Israel and openly exporting terror from Gaza into Israel. Would I support such an operation against. Yet what relevance does the Lavon Affair have to this discussion on Israel? None. You brought it up to distract from the truth.

Misterflyer, in no way am I anti-Arab or am I an Islamaphobe. In fact, I earlier mentioned that while I am pro-Israeli, I am also pro-Palestinian. I support the independance of an Arab state in Gaza and parts of the West Bank. You, by contrast, do not support a secure and Jewish Israel.

Look, the fact remains, that you have been consistently put to shame, by myself and by Ari. The fact that you accused me of making up facts certaintly helps explain your lack of understanding of Israel. The other explanation is political anti-semitism. You deny israel’s right to self-determination as a Jewish state. Undoubtedly, you will respond to this by saying the Jews have a right to a state elsewhere, fully knowing that that is simply impossible.

Even your progression of arguments has revaled all of that to me. First you claim that Europe shoud be responsible for a Jewish State because of WWII and the Holocaust. Seeing evidence of Arab complicity, which you still most likely believe is false, you move on to tell me there is no reason for Israel to exist. You then point to the Lavon Affair. The relevancy of this to the discussion, I am yet to realize. You then talk about Irgun complicity with the Nazis, even though the Irgun fought AGAINST the Nazis. Again and again, time after time you are proven wrong. Now, you cry that I am anti-Arab, despite the fact that I mentioned I am pro-Palestinian numerous times.

UCLAri · December 19, 2006, 9:59pm

Dangerously close to weasel words there…

Mauser · December 19, 2006, 10:13pm

I am sorry that is how you interpreted my words. After re-reading, I realized it was simply poor writing on my part. “apart from Arab rot” referred not to people but the towns and cities that were controlled by the Arabs. Unfortunately, those cities, indeed, could be described as “rot”. The Arab infrastructure was poor. There was much in-fighting amongst the Palestinian Arabs like there is now. Things like sewage, electricity, and other utilities were simply not present like they were in Jewish areas. I only mention this to present a dichotomy between the Jewish and Arab population. By showing that this dichotamy did, in fact, exist, I hopped to show that what the Jews had in terms of infrastructure, used in a very broad sense, really helped their case for statehood.

Perhaps a better way to represnt this would have been to quote Winston Churchill:

“During the last two or three generations the Jews have recreated in Palestine a community, now numbering 80,000, of whom about one fourth are farmers or workers upon the land. This community has its own political organs; an elected assembly for the direction of its domestic concerns; elected councils in the towns; and an organization for the control of its schools. It has its elected Chief Rabbinate and Rabbinical Council for the direction of its religious affairs. Its business is conducted in Hebrew as a vernacular language, and a Hebrew Press serves its needs. It has its distinctive intellectual life and displays considerable economic activity. This community, then, with its town and country population, its political, religious, and social organizations, its own language, its own customs, its own life, has in fact “national” characteristics. When it is asked what is meant by the development of the Jewish National Home in Palestine, it may be answered that it is not the imposition of a Jewish nationality upon the inhabitants of Palestine as a whole, but the further development of the existing Jewish community, with the assistance of Jews in other parts of the world, in order that it may become a centre in which the Jewish people as a whole may take, on grounds of religion and race, an interest and a pride. But in order that this community should have the best prospect of free development and provide a full opportunity for the Jewish people to display its capacities, it is essential that it should know that it is in Palestine as of right and not on the sufferance. That is the reason why it is necessary that the existence of a Jewish National Home in Palestine should be internationally guaranteed, and that it should be formally recognized to rest upon ancient historic connection.”

I apologize for the poor way I expressed myself. Hopefully, Ari, you will now see what I really met. My writing is not as concise as I would like it to be and the use of the word rot was a perfect example of that. I am sure though that with this clarification you agree with me?

SuNa · December 19, 2006, 11:31pm

Since Arabs are also Semitic people, maybe we should use a different word for being against Arabs but pro-Israel.

UCLAri · December 20, 2006, 12:57am

Who’s against Arabs?

misterflyer1997 · December 20, 2006, 1:17am

Mauser I have not ceded one point. I responded to what you said about Arab complicity. According to the U.N. Resolution of 1948 Palestinians were divided between the two sides in the war. Regardless, Palestinian support was insignificant in the Holocaust. You are a fool to even argue that. There were no death camps in Palestine, there were no Jews taken in trains to Auschwitz from Palestine You dream. By my own logic, your argument FAILS. France, through the Vichy Government, Germany through the obvious, and Switzerland through its banks, Eastern Europe by revealing Jewish identities, is what caused the Holocaust. All you have is one guy who was expelled from Palestine long before the end of the world war. What a weasel way of trying to argue out of that. It doesn’t stand either. The post about Lavon Affair was merely saying how the Mossad was responsible for the expulsion of some Jews from Arabic countries.
The difference between me and you is that you see things as black and white and I don’t. For example, you hate the Nazis because you associate Nazism with the Holocaust. When Palestinians like Husseini see Nazism they associate it with the expulsion of Britain and France, which had colonial brutal, anti-democratic rule over Palestine, Syria,etc because of the aftermath of the Ottoman Empire. Although Arabs supported the British and were against the Central Powers in WW1 (Lawrence of Arabia) these Arabic states were not given independence. If anything, they were justified in supporting the Nazis because the British had betrayed them. Both sides are right in that they had moral reasons for their positions.

UCLAri · December 20, 2006, 1:50am

misterflyer,

I take it you’re a cultural relativist?

misterflyer1997 · December 20, 2006, 2:56am

You should take it that I don’t believe in labels. But you are welcome to respond.

mommusic · December 20, 2006, 5:09am

While you are all arguing semantics & theoretical solutions, here comes Al Qaeda with a practical suggestion in this morning’s news:

"The deputy leader of the Al Qaeda terror group, Ayman Al-Zawahri, has come out against early elections in the Palestinian territories, saying in a video tape broadcast on Al-Jazeera on Wednesday that voting would lead only to defeat and the right policy was armed struggle.

Entering the argument over Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas’s proposal for early elections to resolve the conflict between the Fatah and Hamas parties, al-Zawahri said the only way was armed struggle.

“Any way other than holy war, will lead us only to loss and defeat,” al-Zawahri said.

In what appeared to be a reference to Abbas and his Fatah party, al-Zawahri said: “Those who are trying to liberate the Islamic territories through elections based on secular constitutions, or on decisions to hand over Palestine to the Jews, will not liberate one grain of sand of Palestine.”

So there you go. Facts on the ground, and enough to make you despair.

Edit: Anyone who thinks that removing the Jews from this area will lead to peace is in la-la land.

Mauser · December 20, 2006, 7:19am

Misterflyer, you truly are ridiculous. Huessieni, a war crimminal, incited massacres in Palestine, that killed hundreds of Jews 4 year before Hitler was even in power. Did you know read the quotes provided on page 6. His pronouncments on Berlin radio? Did you not know that he organized a German-Arab commando raid on Tel Aviv? Did you nt know that under his command their were Arab units fighting against the allies, that he organized units in Yugoslavia, whose Job was to find Balkan Jews and kill them?

As for the Lavon Affair, the Jews were responsible for being kicked out correct? So after Pearl Harbor then its the Japanese who were responsible for their internment? or after the Dreyfus affair it was the Jews who were responsible their own deaths in France?

Simply put, misterflyer, all of that is irrelevant. The Jewish State exists and it will exist.

UCLAri · December 20, 2006, 7:31am

misterflyer,

You don’t believe in labels, but you’ve bandied them about in this thread yourself.

I mean, you must apply some labels to yourself. Or do you just not believe in labels that you think are unfortunate vis-a-vis yourself?

misterflyer1997 · December 20, 2006, 3:42pm

ok, i am a cultural and moral relativist and you are an israel apologist and mauser is a kahanist, if you are so fond of labels

So, apparently Mauser is trying to use Husseini as the ultimate Nazi that caused the Holocaust that justifies the existence of Israel, funny when I went to the Holocaust Museum in DC noone mentioned him.

Jimmy Carter: Israeli Apartheid - the liberal view.

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