<p>Misterflyer, I partially agree with your logic, that that the Europe, and more specifically the axis countries should have been responsible for helping Israel become a country. And so each shouldered the blame. Lets cast aside Israel’s rght to exist in the Middle East as a Jewish state with a Jewish majority, something granted in 1948, and talk about the axis. First lets look at what the Europeans did to hurt the Jews. The European’s put a quota on Jewish land purchases. The Europeans put a quota on immigrationto Palestine. Especially after 6 million people died, with no place to go, no country to to open its doors, they withered away in refugee camps, with no desire to return to their destroyed homes in their destroyed cities full of people who tried murdering them, they were still not allowed to immigrate to Palestine in large numbers, a right that certainty exised considering there was a Jewish community large enough to sustain these immigrants in a land where the Jews already constituted majority. Eventually, ofcourse the Europeans along with 33 other nations voted to create Israel. But wait, shouldn’t we take into consideration Middle Eastern collaboration with Nazi Germany? According to your logic, those responsible for WWII and the Holocaust should have had to pay the price. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem,Hussieni, the leader of the leading and major Western Palestinian “governmental agency”, much like the Jewish Agency, visited Hitler numerous times. In fact, he told Hitler,“the Muslims inside and outside Plestine welcome the new regime of Germany and hope for the extension of the facist anti-democratic, governmental system to other counties”. In fact, Hussieni, organized a “Nazi Scout” brigade in the stlye of the “Hitler Youth”. Moreover, the SS and Himmler, provided financial and logistical aid for pogroms in Western Palestine (modern day israel). So, as Hitler’s holocaust in Europe was chugging along, so was the Palestinian attempt at Holocaust in Palestine. In fact, that even started much earlier than Hitler’s attempt. In 1929 69 Jews were massacred in Hebron. It might be of interest to you that these Jews were not European immigrants but hundred to thousand year citizens of Palestine. You might be surprised then, Misterlyer, that Hussieni, who if I can remind you again was the leader of the Palestinian Arabs and Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, visited and toured Auschwitz. Unfortunately for you, Hussieni wrote memoirs, which stated:</p>
<p>"Our fundamental condition for cooperating with Germany was a free hand to eradicate every last Jew from Palestine and the Arab world. I asked Hitler for an explicit undertaking to allow us to solve the Jewish problm in a manner befitting our national and racial aspirations and according to the scientific methods innovated by Germany in the hadling of its Jews. The answer I got was:“The Jews are yours”.</p>
<p>World War II, was called a World War for a reason, and in 1944, a German-ARAB commando group, under the command of Hussieni, dropped in Palestine to try to poison Tel Aviv’s wells. Hussieni, the offical leader of Muslims in Palestine, even helpd the pro-nazi coup in Iraq and he organized Muslim commando units in the Bakans called Handselar diviions, which he used to kill Yugoslav Jews.</p>
<p>The Nuremberg trials even declared Husseini a Nazi War Crimminal. </p>
<p>Hussieni, the offical leader of Palestinian muslims, once said this on Berlin radio “Kill the Jews wherever you find them-this pleases God, histoy, and religion”.</p>
<p>In 1948 this war crimminal was elected president of the National Palestinian Council. </p>
<p>So back to your logic, Misterflyer, that the perpaetrators of war and genocide should be held responsible for their deeds, and thus, in your eyes the creation of Israel certaintly met that criteria. </p>
<p>Furthermore, when you made up the number of 6 million Palestinian Arab refugees,(incidentally the number of Jews killed in the holocaust. Makes us think why YOU made up this number) you surely knew that the true number of Arab refugees was 650,000. And you also surely knew that the true number of Jewish refugees from Arab countries was 600,000. (a de facto refugee exchange perhaps?). However, you SURELY, cannot support their return to Israel. Not by your own logic, that is, that the perpatrators of crime and war must shoulder the responsibilities of the war. You mut know that in 1947, after rejecting an Arab state, in an area where the Arabs constituted a majority, 6 Arab armies invaded a country under a British arms embargo, thinking they would crush the young nation. The British, still in Palestine till May of 1948, refused to allow Israel to mobilize an army and import weapons and equipment, even inadvertadely, encouraged this Arab onslaught on Israel. This Arab started war failed. In fact it failed so much, that the Israelis picked up land that was not alloted to them by the UN partition resolution. And this Arab started war even created 650,000 refugees. Should not then the perpatrators of this war shoulder the responsibility of the Arab refugees the same way that Europe should have shouldered the responsibility of Jewish refugees post-holocaust? Misterflyer, looks like you have been caught in your own logic. On one hand, it became evident tha the Arabs were partially responsible for the Nazi crimes and thus, according to YOUR logic, should be forced to also deal with the problem. On the other hand, it became evident that the Arab nations are responsible for the Arab refugee problem, and that THEY, not Israel, according to your logic that is, should have to deal with those Arabs.</p>
<p>As for why the Jews deserved a country in Palestine, with out referencing religion, history, and facts on the ground? Well, the Jews moved to a barren and economically worthless wasteland, displacing practically no one, they moved to a land where the people, as small in numbers as they were, had no nationalistic aspirations, in fact they had no real infrastructure. After building a viable sustaining community, the Jews constituted an ethnic and nationalistic majority in an area completely apart from the Arab rot surrounding the Jewish cities. Thus they had their case for statehood.</p>
<p>But people are different, Misterflyer. You and I may not meet eye-to-eye on this, but it is okay. No matter how many times you and Ahmidenijad espouse the same opinions on how to deal with Israel, Israel will still be a country. No matter, how many times the Arabs wage war on Israel, Israel will still be a country, and no matter, how many suicide bombers blow up babies, Israel will still be a country.</p>
<p>But I would really like to discuss Jimmy Carter’s book. On page 3 of this thread I made some points about it. If anyone would like to discuss them, please, it hould be interesting.</p>
Just for the benefit of viewers.</p>