Missing a day of school is tough but excusable. 4 days not so much.
The company should offer on line partial days. My son had that over 2-3 days a few hrs each day.
It’s a big risk to take. Who knows if the student wants the job. No one knows the pay.
You may disagree and that’s fine. I think the behavior being described crosses a line. We should all have lines.
What if they asked your student to do something against their values ? Is it - well the market is tough ?
I was at an Astra pharmaceutical party interview in the mid 90s - lots of hooking up - highly encouraged. Beautiful girls and not so many guys. That’s how that industry was - attractive girls to convince doctors. So girls, talented or not, were recruited on looks I’d imagine that sort of thing still happens - most car dealers, as an example, have young, attractive, female greeters
If you remember Trilogy software, they took newbies to Vegas and had them gamble away their entire pay - all to learn about risk taking - and I guess eating bread and water.
There are limits - mine might differ. My kids, fortunately weren’t given the 4 day interview scenario but that would be one I’d recommend a pass.
But we are all different.
I can’t find a non pay wall article but if anyone is a subscriber - but this company taught a lot of kids recklessness and ruined lives.
So even in a tough time, I’d have limits.
But again, we all think differently and I can appreciate that.
That’s different. This is part of the interview process - which, unfortunately, some high $$ Wall Street hedge funds and quant shops use (and maybe others too).
This 9-9-6 nonsense needs to stop. BS SF startups with zero long term viability are just embracing work practices in their AI drunken stupor. At least this particular firm only wants 0.5 Saturdays.
I don’t see a problem as long as the expectations are set up front.
My first few jobs were startups that didn’t have set hours, but people were working around 70 hours per week. I was young, had the energy to do it, and my wife supported my efforts. The odds of a startup succeeding are low even with people putting in their maximal effort. Only one of those really paid off, but enough so that my wife and I bought our first home with cash.
As I got older, I stopped looking at those roles because I had more responsibilities and less energy.
I am curious if grads these days are less willing to work really extended hours. S22 is working at one of these deep tech start-up like big company this fall - punishing hours even if the work is super cool and cutting edge. No one forces interns to stay but pretty much everyone there works 8-8 M-F at a minimum. On one of his recent calls, he was lamenting the work hours and stated most of his friends would never do this kind of schedule over a long period of time. Not sure if he was simply venting or if there really is a trend these days.
Most people generally are not fans of extremely long hours all the time (versus occasional situations). Presumably, this is why, in the US, 40 hour work weeks are supposed to be the norm. Even before the 40 hour work week became part of US law (where hourly workers had to be paid overtime pay for greater work hours), some companies found that reducing work weeks to 40 hours improved productivity.
However, there is now increasing economic pressure to have fewer employees working more, because what were once considered “fringe” benefits are now expensive (e.g. medical insurance). Because these benefits are per employee (not per hour worked), it is cheaper to have 8 employees working 9 hours per day than to have 9 employees working 8 hours per day. This could still be true even if the employees are hourly and must be paid overtime pay for the 9th hour per day.
In this instance, its not about employee shortage. Its really about the culture of grinding and innovation. the flip side is a ridiculous level of exposure and the autonomy to build something objectively cool that is 100% your work.
Evidence- besides your own kids and five of their friends?
Despite regulatory changes, med students and residents still log brutal hours. Which for most of them will continue throughout their fellowship years, and depending on the specialty- beyond that.
Despite what popular culture is telling us about Gen Z or whatever Gen we are up to know- there are still young people grinding away at demanding jobs at law firms (if you don’t keep up your billables, it will be adios come bonus time), financial institutions, consulting firms, etc.
On the infrequent occasions when I need to take an early commuter train, I am always amused by the young people heading in to work. They don’t dress the way we used to, they carry around these enormous water bottles like they are heading to the Sahara desert instead of midtown Manhattan, and they shove everything into ratty backpacks instead of the shiny briefcases and “status tote bags” our generation carried.
But they’re on a 5:45 am train, either reading the FT or doing work on a laptop.
And folks in the trades also. Men with metal chests, women with wheelie bags and tools sticking out of them, hardhats looped to their belts and steel toed boots. These are ALSO young people- don’t know if they are still apprentices or are just scheduled onsite for very long hours.
Our son isn’t creating anything cool, there is no potential financial windfall in the future, but most shifts he feels like he made a difference. Those shifts are 12 hours long, and in 63 days, 90% of those hours will be in the dark. It’s not an easy job, but he loves it, so for him the hours aren’t a problem.
Today is a day off. He’s teaching a class from 8-5. That’s 9 hours of lucrative overtime, but he’s doing it to better prepare his co-workers for dangerous, dynamic, potentially tragic events.
There are young adults out there that are willing to work long hours. If they combine those hours with a willingness to collaborate and connect with peers and managers across different departments, I have no doubt that they’ll become more successful than the clock watchers.
Evidence - I work at a company that has young people - constantly in and out.
People in my industry - work with young people.
My son started in a cohort of 150 - and yes I see him and his friends.
My daughter is in a tough gig - and people have left.
Article after article.
There’s lots of evidence - and in my company’s case we now have (started in the last five years), flag football, golf and soccer tourneys - during the day (one day a year) and last year added a day off for everyone go on a hike or to be outdoors (coming up in October).
There’s lots of evidence - and not just personal. Tons and tons of articles.
You bring up a niche job - medical doctor. I’m talking about society at large.
There’s evidence everywhere you look and read.
I didn’t say everyone - but the way of the world has changed. Kids aren’t on an overall basis wanting to work as hard - and today they care about what their company’s stand for. Maybe that’s a good thing - but the world is different and on an overall basis (not an exception basis), the world is vastly different.
Evidence - besides your public transit observations? Life work balance is definitely more on the radar with the younger generations, as it should be. No one is on the deathbed wishing they had worked more hours. And IMO enough studies have been done about productivity taking a nosedive after so many hours that it seems counter productive. Sure, in some fields the nose to the grindstone is a thing, and some people happily thrive on it which is fantastic, but I’d say more and more young people aren’t defined by their work and I’m thrilled for them. This new world order we’re in may change things.
At some point the articles about “nobody can find a job” and “work life balance is the most important thing” are going to collide in some netherworld. In the meantime, the folks that keep the streets safe, patch up the people who ride motorcycles without a helmet, prevent cyberattacks from shutting down our air traffic control systems, rescue folks from burning buildings– all jobs requiring long and sometimes uncontrollable hours- will have to take comfort in whatever modest contribution they are making to society. Clearly not enough by some standards- but surely better than making TikToks with their abundant “free time” and complaining that they can’t make enough money to move out of their childhood bedroom.
Our associates routinely work 11 hour days and this is not a super high pressure IB or startup type environment. Of course, enjoying the work and having a company that looks after you helps as well. They all seem quite happy to do it.
Our S25 was told the work trial is the final interview to see if he “fits.” Also was told the overall work hours are not overly crazy but it is expected that employees think about work during non-work hours. Is that “setting clear expectations early”? I suspect most if not many will work long hours.
I don’t know yet if S’s request for slightly different dates for the work trials has been approved. He was hoping to use a Saturday as a return date so he only missed 3 days of classes. S has an interest to work on “super cool and cutting edge” things but wants to be mindful about overall health impact.
Reads like the typical older generation complaining about the younger generation…
The older generation had the same 40 hour work week rules that exist now. The US economy was more competitive then, so there were more other employment options for dissatisfied employees. The US economy back then also gave a greater share to labor versus capital. Entry level jobs now require more and more expensive education than they used to. So yes, the US economy is different now, but in many ways less favorable to the current generation compared to the older generation.
Clever swerve. I have nothing but absolute respect for people who serve others. However, the assumption that a life work balance revolves around TikTok is absurd. As is the stereotype that those who seek it are infantile.