Juilliard Financial Aid: Is this normal, what would you do?

Paying for College
1

Hi gals & guys,

First, please forgive my very weak understanding of finances and American colleges. I was born in the US, but I grew up in Europe, and have been living in Switzerland since my early 20s. Also, it simply never crossed either my wife’s or my mind that either of our kids would want to study in America, so we’re waaaay behind the ball on this.

Situation: Our son is good at singing, and toward the end of conservatory/performing arts high school, he decided that he wanted to discover his American roots - ergo, he’s dreaming of doing his vocal performance training at a college in the US. Last month he travelled to New York and Philadelphia for auditions (voice, classical). He had a really nice experience, except for getting lonely toward the end.

He’s still waiting for word from a conservatory called Curtis Institute in Philadelphia, but he just got news that he would be welcome to study at Juilliard.

Which is pretty nifty!

Only: When I first saw that they’re offering a yearly 30k scholarship, I was upbeat - until I realized that the overall yearly budget is almost 75k - which really took the wind out of our sails! My wife and I think we can scrape together 20k per year, but we’d still be facing a 25k yearly deficit.

(By comparison: Our daughter studies at continental Europe’s premier institute of technology and pays less than $1500 per year - which her teaching assistant job pays easily, with lots left over. Oh - and she lives at home, too … )

Couple questions:

  • Is this a NORMAL offer on Juilliard's part?? Or this a school's NICE way of saying, "Thanks for applying, kid, but we're not really feeling it - unless you're filthy rich, in which case, hey, whatever ... "?
  • Is there some way NORMAL US folks scrape together this kind of money, besides taking on insane amounts of debt?? (Even our son is pretty clear about not wanting to start a career in music almost 100k in the red ... I mean, if he wanted to be an engineer like big sis, that'd be a different game ...)
  • What's the part time work situation in the US? Since our son is not a US citizen, I understand that he isn't allowed to get a job during his first year - but if we could somehow pull through year one, what kind of money can college students typically make??
  • Do up-and-coming singers tend to pick up many paying gigs in NY? Our son actually pulls in a pretty nice revenue stream around here. Solo work with a choir here, a funeral there - it all adds up, and it accumulates over time! But New York is a whole new world.
  • Any other tips? Right now, I'm really having trouble seeing how we can make this work - though I sure as hell wish I could, cause I'd love our kid to have that experience.

Again, I understand that we walked into this without having a clue what we were doing - feel free to tell me just how naive we are!

P.S. The local conservatory is helping him contact a number of Swiss foundations that help finance young artists - so it could be that he’ll find some financial aid on this side of the pond.

2

Juillard offered you a decent financial aid package based on the expectation that you either can afford to pay the rest from your current salaries or have saved up (the way Americans are expected to) to cover the rest, or are willing to take on a loan.

Don’t expect your son to be able to contribute a significant amount through part time jobs. For one, he will be busy, and realistically there’s a limit to what he can earn vs. what his expenses will be.

Another note: the vast, vast majority of NORMAL people don’t send their kids to Juilliard or other elite private schools in super expensive cities. Most normal people send their kids to their area state U, often to an inexpensive community college first.

And yes, there are families that put themselves into staggering debt to pay for a child’s elite education despite everyone telling them not to. Debt is big in America.

Here’s hoping you can get enough independent financial aid to help you cover what Juilliard won’t – it’s a very prestigious education. Good luck!

3

You might want to post your query in the music majors are. However, a $30,000 award from Juilliard is actually a very good award. Performing arts conservatories don’t have a huge amount of money to be meeting full need for all.

If your son gets accepted at Curtis, he will have no tuition costs, but he will have living expenses in Philly, and those are not free.

I want to say…we have a kid who was a music performance major and never wavered from that. He is self supporting as a freelancer in music where he lives.

Our second kid got a degree in engineering…but about half way through decided engineering was not going to be the life career, and added a double major in biology. What I’m saying is…the engineering major never worked on engineering.

Conservatory educations are very costly. Your son got an excellent award from Juilliard. But it sounds like it doesn’t meet your price point.

Juilliard does have a gig service and their students do pick up jobs through it, or through connections with other musicians. But don’t count on that to bridge a $30,000 a year or more gap…because it won’t. In addition, there will be restrictions on the types of jobs and how much he can earn as someone who is not a citizen here.

Did he apply to any conservatories in your country or anywhere else in the EU?

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That’s actually a really great offer from Julliard. They don’t throw around scholarships. But yes, that’s completely normal for an elite American college experience. And yes, these programs are primarily for the rich.

My son actually applied to VP programs but could not consider anywhere that didn’t at least have some history of generous merit aid. His lowest offer right now is about 18K per year out of pocket and we are full pay everywhere. The highest offer we are considering is 30K. So it is possible to get a cheaper music education in the states and these are actually kind of middling programs (my kid wants to double degree so these are all part of an academic program as well), we could have explored cheaper options as well.

Does he have any affordable offers? That sounds pretty unsustainable to me and I certainly wouldn’t take that much debt on. If he is lucky enough to get an offer from Curtis, that may be affordable for you. They are very generous. Does he have anything on the back burner in Europe?

VP students in the states are able to make some money as section leaders and a few side gigs, however I would not count on it for more than spending money and possibly books. Many teachers wouldn’t want their young singers doing much off this anyway.

5

Could he get his undergraduate voice training in Europe?

And then go to graduate school for vocal performance in the US?

6

Families that choose to support their student’s decision to attend a pricey private college or university in an expensive city… well, they may be privileged, they may be fortunate, they may be blessed… and they may be in the minority, but please do not allude to them as something other than “Normal”. “The majority” or “typical” might be more appropriate descriptors.

7

Congratulations to your son as the Juilliard School accepts only one in seventeen (6%) of all applicants.

You can ask Julliard for more money, but your best hope is for Curtis to offer admission.

8

Just a quick thank you for the kind answers - I really appreciate your friendliness, and it was nice to hear that no, the offer we’re looking at wasn’t actually a subtle put down!! I honestly wasn’t sure what to think.

About Curtis: Yeah. If he gets that one, we’ll find enough cash. That would be a dream come true. He got through to their final round, so all we can do is be patient, and trust that if he’s the guy who should be there, he will be.

A couple of you asked about European options. The answer is yeah, they’re out there.

Our son’s vocal coach(es) (= a couple late in their career - with serious teaching chops and great track record) actually thinks he should stay home for another year - even though he’s already a bit older than a US high school graduate would be. (The age-lines between high school and college are more elastic here, btw.) Although he graduates from his high school program this summer, he can stay for another year and continue to have access to the conservatory facilities, their coaching & master classes - he could even “enjoy” more lectures in music theory and history. (Ahem.) So if the American Dream College project doesn’t work out, he can spend another year home while he plans his future, continues to build his voice & gig connections over here - and gets a couple part-time jobs to build a war chest for 2020.

Also: There are lots of reasons why my wife and I (and his coaches!) would like to see him looking at places in the EU. Switzerland pays great but may not be the best scene for a young barihunk - but the programs in Vienna, Munich, Helsinki, Amsterdam - etc. - aren’t exactly chopped liver, and they’re way closer, and they’re set in cities with vibrant classical music scenes, and the price point is no comparison, and, and … but: They’re not in the USA, and I completely get why a young man would want to go there - particularly given his roots!

I think, if this tour doesn’t work out, he’ll be back auditioning in the US in 2020, at a wider selection of schools - it’s not like Curtis and Juilliard are the only good music schools in the US, and I’m getting the feeling that some of the others mind be more affordable than J and less of a lucky punch situation than C.

About Swiss-side financial aid: Next week our son will be hitting up the foundations. His conservatory AND his old boys choir are invested in seeing him succeed, and it looks like they’re willing to be pretty active about helping him contact potential sources. They’ve been terrific with us over the years, and it’s always nice for them whenever one of their former pupils/singers is over being a Very Cool Person in the Big Apple …

OTOH, from a European perspective, the amount money involved is just … insane. I mean, this elite school business is cool - who wouldn’t love to go to a place like that?! - but also: the goal here is to do music to pay your own bills - not theirs.

9

You write that you were born in the US. What is your US citizenship status? If you are a citizen, your son might be eligible for that status (I know there are rules about how long you neded to live here and at what age, and those rules have changed over the years as well) or at least Permanent Resident status which would change his financial aid situation and work permission. If his only option is to study here in F1 status, then yes, there are restrictions on work eligibility.

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Thanks for the question, happymom.
I gave up my US citizenship a few years ago, at the height of the turmoil between Swiss banks and the US. (It was that or lose my retirement account. Disappointing, but not a huge emotional loss. Again, I grew up on this side of the Atlantic.)
My mom IS a US citizen, and I believe she could have transmitted her citizenship before his 18th birthday. Since that’s passed, I’m pretty sure there’s not much to do at that level.

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@baridad

I’m confused. Are you the parent or the student.

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@baridad,

It would be worth a chat with a good immigration lawyer. Some citizenship issues hinge on parental status at birth of the child, so it may be that your child is considered a citizen. With a US citizen grandparent, there also might be some tricky stuff about immigration intent at the time of applying for a student visa. Don’t let him get derailed by something like that.

13

The father gave up his citizenship. Didn’t want to pay the taxes. There are consequences to that decision. Any citizenship under the Child Citizenship Act would have had to have been established before age 18. Under that Act, you still had to apply for the Citizenship and it wasn’t/isn’t automatic.

You can appeal the FA, but as others have said above, he has a pretty good deal with that big award. In the US, most students either have families who can pay the difference, have saved for college for many years (along with retirement) or they go to a cheaper college. If OP’s son has the option of being sponsored by music patrons, that’s a good deal too. There are schools that give big financial aid to Internationals, but that is usually need based (Harvard, Yale) and this family may not qualify for financial need. Johns Hopkins now has big bucks for all students and I’m not sure it applies to the conservatory, but worth looking into.

14

There are various types of universities in the us: some provide need based aid, some provide merit aid. Because conservatories don’t have a lot of billionaires donating money, they have little for scholarships - and since pretty much everyone go gets into Juilliard wants to attend they dont have much incentive. In that context, the scholarship he got is excellent.
Hopefully he’ll raise enough money - perhaps he can agree to do publicity photos and operations to help recruit more singers. (‘Autographed picture with Singer Z who’s now at Juilliard !’)
However if it doesn’t work, he can defer znd still try and get money , or he may get into a full need college and get more => run the NPC on Yale.
He may get merit at a top college for vocal music => run the NPC in St Olaf, look into the music scholarships.
As an F1 student he wouldn’t be allowed to work off campus - ask Juilliard how it goes for their musicians since singing gigs are not quite like a job, they’re more like training.

15

Juilliard is a private school. They need to make money to keep their progams running. They do give financial aid, but unlike Curtis, which is unique in its tuition free policy, Juilliard runs things more like the most selective colleges.

As an international student, your son will not be eligible for federal or state aid (in most, if not all states), but frankly, the cost of Juilliard and such schools, the amount that one can get from there is a drop in the bucket and school financial aid integrates that money into their formulas. So you aren’t missing anything that way.

If it is not affordable to pay these costs, your son might find it a better deal to study in Europe where the state sponsored programs may be free or low cost. If he want to give it another go next year, in the application process, he may want to include such programs along with schools in the US where full merit awards are available for international students. There are many threads on this forum addressing the challenges and options for those international students who need substantial aid.

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  • pretty much everyone WHO gets into Juilliard wants to go...
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Thanks for the many comments. In particular, @MYOS1634: thanks for the alternative recommendations.

We’re currently pursuing a two pronged strategy: appealing for a reduction on Juilliard’s side (apparently, it’s worth a try), while we simultaneously contact several local organizations, cooperatives and foundations about maybe getting a handout. It’s hard to say whether we’ll find enough puzzle pieces to put together a realistic Juilliard picture, but we’re definitely giving it the old college try - and our son is learning some lessons about fundraising that will definitely come in handy if he sticks to a career in music! (At the same time, we’re also waiting to see how the Curtis situation plays out - it turns out that one ALSO one involves some cross-cultural complications of its own, though not of a financial nature.)

A number of people brought up pursuing US citizenship. AFAIK, being a citizen wouldn’t make that big of a (financial) difference here - and in any case, I don’t think that’s a realistic option. There might (possibly) be some way of getting it transmitted from MY mother, but it’s unlikely - and being a Swiss-American double-citizen can involve serious long term headaches.

On a related note, @twoinanddone:

You wrote a helpful comment above; however, I’d like to respond to one statement that doesn’t pertain to this conversation, but that I am personally sensitive about: I did not - REPEAT, DID NOT - relinquish US citizenship to avoid paying US taxes. While I think US policy on this issue is bizarre (Somalia is the only other country that claims double taxation rights), you have to be in a pretty high income bracket to get double-taxed - and I’ve never had that level of financial success.

Like many other low-to-middle income people who happened to be making an honest living in Europe (particularly Switzerland) during those years, I got caught in the crossfire between the IRS and Swiss banks. The fight lead to a situation where Swiss banks started aggressively shedding US citizen clients - except for “high value account holders”.** The banks were up front about their motivation: Small fry like me generate lots of expenses and not much income, so they didn’t want us as customers and started exerting pressure to make us leave - even though I had been a client for 20+ years and am a Swiss citizen. When I failed to find ANY other local bank that would accept me, my bank retaliated by liquidating my retirement account. So I did what I had to do.

Again, ZERO relevance to this thread, but people tend to have some misconceptions about this.

**BTW, this was suuuuper ironic - since it was the high value account holders that the IRS was trying to root out - not schlubs like me.

18

But you did make your decision to renounce your citizenship. Maybe you did what you had to do, but that decision still has consequences. I can’t imagine giving my citizenship up, and I paid a lot for my daughter to get hers. When I did, her citizenship from her birth country was revoked. Done deal, she can’t now go back and get free healthcare or education that the citizens of that country get. That is the price of being an American sometimes.

You are right that even if your son (or you) was a US citizen, his financial aid is unlikely to have changed that much. The only guaranteed aid is a Pell grant (up to $6100) for low income student (and family income counts even if not American money) and student loans.

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@baridad @twoinanddone Having worked for the State Department for a number of years before moving on, I am confused about your citizenship status. Were you (and your wife) US citizens at the time your son was born? If so, your child will have acquired US citizenship AUTOMATICALLY at birth. I assume you registered the birth and received a “Consular Report of Birth Abroad”? Even if you did not, your son will still be a US citizen and there is no requirement that you register his birth by his 18th birthday. I suggest you contact the US Embassy to obtain the necessary documentation.

I’m also assuming that when you stated “MY” mother is still a US citizen you meant “his” mother. However, the fact that you renounced your US citizenship AFTER your child’s birth will have no impact on his citizenship. He remains a US citizen. Also, legally, a parent cannot renounce their child’s citizenship. Your child must do so himself, after turning 18.

The Child Citizenship Act does not apply in your case as you and/or your wife were US citizens at the time your child was born. You should note that under US law, if your child is entitled to US citizenship, they must apply for a US passport and use that to enter the USA.

20

Getting back to the topic…

This student’s U.S. citizenship will not affect his aid at Juilliard…except that he could take a $5500 Loan in his name.

@lykia99 it’s the grandmother who is a U.S. citizen, not the student’s mother.

We don’t know the citizenship status of the student’s mom. But you are correct in that they should go to the U.S. embassy and get this straightened out.