LAC or engineering program?

Parents Forum
1

<p>Last fall, DS happily applied to a mix of engineering programs and non-engineering LAC’s (with strong science programs). Now, with the clock ticking down to May 1, he doesn’t know which to choose: engineering program or LAC?</p>

<p>The kid –
ac**•a10 years of successful FIRST robotics competition, primarily as lead programmer; not interested in or particularly skilled at robot design, although he helped out with that as needed.
ac•aAttended STEM schools, and excelled, but his favorite classes were always humanities and social studies.
ac•aHas studied a foreign language for six years, and wants to study abroad in that country, in a full immersion program.
ac•aEnjoys biology and chemistry; physics . . . not so much.
ac•aTook en engineering design class in high school (culminating in an individual design project) and enjoyed it.
ac•aWants to study engineering because he likes identifying and solving problems.
ac•aRecently discovered an interest in medicine.
ac•**aPost-grad aspirations: a career in clinical medicine, but wants to get an undergrad degree in engineering, just in case he changes his mind about becoming a doctor. </p>

<p>If he chooses the LAC –
ac**PRO:aHe’ll have abundant opportunity to explore all his interests in science, language, humanities, social sciences.
acPRO:aHe can study abroad.
acPRO:aHe can do a premed program.
acCON:aIf he decides he doesn’t want to go to med school, getting an engineering degree would require two to three years of potentially costly post-grad study.
acCON:**aWithout the chance to take engineering classes as an undergrad, he can’t even be sure it’s a field he wants to pursue. </p>

<p>If he chooses the engineering program –
ac**PRO:aHe can find out as an undergrad whether or not he enjoys engineering and, if he doesn’t, he can transfer into a different major (STEM or non-STEM) and still be able to graduate within four years.
acPRO:aIf he completes the B.S., he can get a job as soon as he graduates, or go on to med school.
acCON:aAlthough a wonderful variety of non-STEM courses are available, the rigorous demands of the engineering major would leave him very limited time or opportunity to explore his non-STEM interests. If he strays from the schedule prescribed for all engineering majors, he risks not graduating in four years.
acCON:**aStudy abroad would likewise be limited to English-language engineering programs, or he risks not graduating in four years. </p>

<p>The cost for undergrad is thankfully not an issue . . . but if he can’t graduate in four years, that would be a huge problem! (All scholarships, financial aid awards, etc. are good for eight semesters only.)</p>

<p>The identity of the individual schools really doesn’t matter. They differ in lots of ways, but the basics are the same: the LAC’s don’t offer engineering, and the engineering programs all offer specialized degrees in engineering that leave little room in the student’s schedule for courses other than engineering, math, and science. (Swarthmore, which offers a non-specialized B.S. in engineering, with far fewer requirements, would have been an interesting option, but it’s not on the list.)</p>

<p>Advice or suggestions?</p>

2

<p>In theory, many LACs have 3/2 programs that grant both a BA and a BS in engineering. That’s 5 years, though. And in practice what I’ve heard is that very few students want to leave their LAC after their junior year and go off somewhere else to do their final 2 years.</p>

<p>I think it comes down to how important engineering per se might be for your son. It is possible to get a good liberal arts education at a university (though harder for engineering majors given course and time constraints), but it is impossible to take engineering courses at a LAC if there is no engineering department.</p>

<p>Some kinds of engineering can be done at the graduate level with a good undergraduate degree in math, computer science, physics, chemistry etc. But if your son is thinking of wanting to work as an engineer after 4 years of college, that pretty much requires getting an actual engineering degree.</p>

<p>If he’s really thinking about med school, then more options are open. You don’t have to major in biology - you just have to meet all the pre-med requirements. I’ve heard / read that med schools actually welcome philosophy majors.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

3

<p>If only one could travel into the future and find out what the kid really wants to do in life!</p>

<p>Given the 50/50 (or even less then 50/50) percent chance he’ll really end up being an engineer, the LAC makes more sense to me, but he also, reasonably, wants to keep that door open.</p>

<p>The 3-2 programs are not really an option - wherever he ends up, he wants to stay there for all four years. Just so it’s four, and not five. ;)</p>

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<p>To me, this is the most compelling reason: </p>

<p>“PRO:He can find out as an undergrad whether or not he enjoys engineering and, if he doesn’t, he can transfer into a different major (STEM or non-STEM) and still be able to graduate within four years.”</p>

5

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<p>Looks like these give him the option of any of his possible majors, unlike the the LACs without engineering. However, if he dislikes physics, that may indicate a lesser likelihood of liking engineering, as physics is the most fundamental science for most types of engineering (although some are more based on math and statistics than physics, like industrial).</p>

<p>Engineering majors typically have 25% of their curricula as math and science, and 20-25% as humanities and social studies breadth requirements (although the selection of courses within the latter category does vary by school).</p>

6

<p>There are some LACs with engineering (ex. Union, Lafayette, Trinity) but I guess they are not in the equation. Nobody here can answer this – you and he will have the best idea of his interests, desires etc. </p>

7

<p>I’m not convinced that any of the “LAC’s with engineering” really retain their character as LAC’s, other than Swarthmore. When the engineering/math/science requirements make up 3/4 of the kid’s education, can you really call it a liberal arts education? </p>

<p>Thank you to those of you who pointed out that being able to do engineering for a year, and then switch, is a strong argument in favor of the engineering programs. I guess I’ll have to give the engineering options extra credit for that. :)</p>

8

<p>I thought I’d chime in because DS went to a LAC and is headed off to engineering grad school. A few thoughts:
I don’t think I’d start in engineering if it is not likely that’s what he wants to do. Intro engineering classes are frequently weeder classes and GPA killers, and I know more than one student who felt they couldn’t transfer out because their GPA was only considered acceptable for engineering. Particularly if med school is a serious thought, I’m not sure that’s the best way to proceed. Also, engineering grad school does not always cost money, particularly at the PhD level. Finally, I don’t know your son, but the fact that he doesn’t like physics makes me wonder if he would like engineering. I would think it would be possible to do something engineering related in the summers, if he really wants to explore it. I would vote LAC. </p>

9

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<p>Liberal arts typically make up about 45-50% of an engineering degree. Remember that math and science are liberal arts.</p>

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<p>Of course, that probably goes double for pre-med courses (which are typically mostly the same as frosh/soph biology major prerequisites). Probably a lot of medical career dreams die in organic chemistry classrooms…</p>

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Aha! It’s possible! <:-P</p>

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<p>I get it that you don’t want to name particular schools. But what is the subtext of how he feels about his finalist two schools? For example, is he much more drawn to the LAC and trying to justify the research university?</p>

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<p>Since he has had 10 years programming in First Robotics, maybe he should consider computer science instead. In alot of the universities, it is in the Engineering Department. LACs also offer CS, but I would only consider one with a good CS reputation if he goes that way. </p>

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<p>Of his best options, his two top choices are one LAC and one engineering program. The LAC has some obvious advantages, particularly in variety of course offerings and study abroad programs. But he visited and liked both.</p>

<p>My feeling about the engineering program is that it’s good that he’d get to try it for a year and see how he likes it . . . but what if he does like it? Then he loses out on all the other things he wants to do in college, including doing a non-engineering study abroad program. He gets his engineering degree, but at what price? He won’t ever get to go to college again. (Sorry, my bias is showing. :"> )</p>

14

<p>While 3/2 programs aren’t for everyone, there are people who finish them ranging from an Uncle(Physics BA/BS CivE ) to a few LAC classmates who mostly ended up at Columbia SEAS. </p>

<p>Said uncle stayed at his engineering university another year to get his Masters before embarking on a 50+ year career as a PE. </p>

<p>The fact your S didn’t enjoy physics is a bit concerning if he’s serious about engineering as that’s one of the foundational subjects for the field. Everyone I knew who excelled in engineering enjoyed physics in HS/college. </p>

<p>Also, the weedout intro courses, high workload, and difficulty of engineering curricula for most students is one key reason few pre-meds major in engineering for undergrad. </p>

<p>In some engineering colleges/majors I know of, getting a 2.8 cumulative GPA means you’re in the top 1/3 of your graduating class. However, that same GPA means you’re not likely to succeed in med school admissions. </p>

15

<p>I don’t know much about engineering, but I can see parallels to my son’s experience with architecture. </p>

<p>Engineering and architecture are among the few professional schools that allow entry right after high school (as opposed to law and medicine which are graduate programs in the U.S.). By comparison, European students go off to medical or law school at the age of 18, which always seems to me to be way too early.</p>

<p>My son was fairly set on architecture at an early age but chose not to go directly into undergraduate architecture school. Instead, he took a BA at a small liberal arts school and later – after working a couple of years in the field – a masters of architecture at a large research university. </p>

<p>For him, it was the best decision. He feels that his undergraduate BA offered a broader and deeper education than we would have had had he focused on architecture as an undergraduate, and that the experience and added maturity made him a better graduate student and ultimately a better architect.</p>

<p>The downside? Time to a certain extent and money to a great extent. He put in 8.5 years of higher education and accumulated a serious debt. But when I ask him would you do it again knowing what you know now, he says emphatically yes.</p>

<p>I think the actual schools involved in the your son’s choice are pertinent, especially if the idea of switching out of engineering is entertained. Our undergraduate experiences – not just academic but also social and cultural – can have a profound impact on who we become and how we interact with the world. </p>

<p>It’s still too early to judge how my son’s debt will play out over the next few years. Right now, it seems manageable, though of course situations can change, but without doubt the liberal arts education has already proven valuable to both personally and professionally. </p>

<p>All life decisions include risk and imply potential regret. Your son has to take his best shot based on what he knows today. He can’t cover all twists and turns that may arise in the future. In my opinion, if he’s not firmly sold on engineering, he should take the other road.</p>

<p>PS, He sounds like he’d make a good architect!</p>

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<p>There could also be the subtext that the LAC is seen as being much “better” (more prestigious, more selective, etc.) than the school with engineering, for subjects that both offer. For example, suppose the LAC is a school like Macalester, while the school with engineering is a school like Auburn. So while Auburn engineering is the obvious choice on paper for a student who wants to try engineering but have other options if he does not like it, it could be that the OP thinks that he won’t like engineering, switch out of it, and regret not going to a “better” school that the LAC is seen as.</p>

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<p>Many European doctors…including one of my pediatricians who was educated in a European country view the US system of medical/law education as wasting the time and money of aspiring doctors/lawyers. Not to mention the gen-ed classes covered in the first-two years of US undergrad is often considered covered during the HS years when some specialization has already started so they don’t see the point of continuing that practice in undergrad. </p>

<p>Undergrad in many European and other foreign universities is more akin to something between a US Bachelors and Masters degree in which almost all courses taken are in your department/major. </p>

<p>Then again, while med students start at 18, they end up spending 6+ years due to curriculum and practice requirements. Moreover, the barrier to entry is arguably just as severe as one usually needs the highest HS grades and/or university entrance exam marks to enter med school. </p>

<p>Despite this, I know of a few acquaintances who succeeded in gaining direct entry into British or Irish med schools straight out of US K-12. </p>

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<p>Law did not used to be this way in the US. The earlier Governor Brown of California earned a law degree but did not previously earn a bachelor’s degree.</p>

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<p>Perhaps the 6-7 year accelerated MD programs in the US may be closer to that concept.</p>

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<p>Don’t over think study abroad. One of my kids was not able to manage the time away (due to course sequencing, etc.) and ended up getting a fellowship for a summer program which turned out to be a better deal both financially and academically. I know kids who have doubled down on credits and “graduated early” (i.e. had enough credits to graduate in December of senior year) and then spent 5 months abroad, returning home to walk/graduate with their class. Kids can get jobs overseas after graduation.</p>

<p>I wouldn’t eliminate an otherwise suitable program just because of the study abroad issues. </p>

<p>I would take a long look at why the kid doesn’t love physics. It could be the teacher, it could be the HS- or it could be that the kid isn’t cut out for engineering. There are a lot of careers which would build on his math skills which could be well supported by a BA from an LAC. And certainly a big university has many options as well.</p>

<p>If it were my kid I’d be advising the richest intellectual/academic environment, regardless of the discipline.</p>

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<p>As others have written, physics is essential for most engineering, especially any type of mechanical or civil engineering. Computer science at a good LAC might be an attractive alternative if the other aspects of the LAC in question seem compelling.</p>