LOL! Mom, for real?

Parent Cafe
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<p>It’s about the biological clock.</p>

<p>Women’s fertility starts to decrease a lot earlier than many people realize, and the drop after age 35 is drastic. The concern is that a woman might wait too long to find a partner and then discover that she can’t get pregnant. For those couples whose expectations always included children, this is a huge disappointment.</p>

<p>Men’s fertility doesn’t drop so quickly or dramatically with age, so there’s less pressure on them both from their bodies and from their families/friends/colleagues.</p>

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<p>For people that want children in their lives, there are many ways to do that besides physically giving birth.
Why put those restrictions on yourself?</p>

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<p>That’s a very good point. Not everyone gives a high priority to having a biological child. But some people do.</p>

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<p>I think educating women about fertility is fine, but I think it’s also important to remind women that there are other alternatives, and they don’t have to settle or feel bad or spend their entire 20’s looking for men.</p>

<p>Also, again, I don’t feel it’s just the women themselves. I work in an office with some HIGHLY successful women, and I hear about the pressure their families/relatives put on them. I am not saying they wouldn’t put pressure on themselves, but what really bothers me is that I think this desire to find a mate/have kids is often either created or exaggerated by other women. It’s the desire to feel ‘normal’. I feel a lot of judgment is passed on unmarried, ‘older’ women, and it’s questioned why they can’t “find a man.” No one even bothers to ask if they want one.</p>

<p>Again, I am all for marriage and families - they can be great, but I think women are taught to be extremely men-oriented - the vast majority of what many women talk about is either men or how to get men by changing very superficial things about themselves (looks, weight, learning to cook, etc.). And I feel that the obsession with looks, perfect body, youth, etc., young girls dressing more sexual comes from this same misguided notion that a woman must find a man.</p>

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<p>Did she warn that her son had permission to marry but not permission to leave home?</p>

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<p>I don’t think what this woman said is all that outrageous. I don’t agree with all of what she said, but it hardly deserves the hoopla it is creating. I think Marian’s post 39 is a fair summary.</p>

<p>African-American women have faced this issue for a long time. There are 3X as many African-American female college grads as African-American male college grads. So, if college-educated African-American women DO want to marry–I’m not saying that everyone does–they often have the difficult choice of dating African-American men who are less well -educated or dating outside their race.</p>

<p>The video from the Princeton-educated comic was hilarious in part because it’s so true. The poster who linked it thought the comic thought the Wharton grad wasn’t “good enough” for her. I assure you that’s not the point of the video. The point is that the Wharton grad bragged about his college at the beginning of their conversation because that’s how he was trying to impress her, and she knew he would lose all interest when he found out she went to Princeton. That’s WHY she said she said she went to school in New Jersey, when asked. </p>

<p>A generation ago, when Harvard Law still had mixers and there were very few female students, a female first year student went to one. After an hour of quick, abortive conversations and not a single request to dance, she started lying and saying she went to Lesley College (now Lesley University). She was soon out on the dance floor.</p>

<p>When some of the guys called her later, she told them the truth and many of them said right up front that they wanted to marry someone like a teacher, not another lawyer…which is, of course, their right.</p>

<p>When I first got divorced, I went to a singles dance. I got dumped in the middle of the dance floor when I answered the question of where I went to school honestly. The man who dumped me was a college grad and we were both 40ish at the time. I overheard his subsequent conversation with a friend. He said he couldn’t believe his rotten luck in meeting a woman who went to [fill in my school name here.]</p>

<p>There was a survey done by the Yale Daily News about 10 years ago now. In this anonymous survey, an astonishingly high percentage of Yale guys said they would want to marry women who were college grads, but not grads of Yale or other Ivies. (Of course, lots of Yalies marry other Yalies, as JHS can witness.) </p>

<p>I’m definitely NOT claiming that a Princeton woman can’t marry a Brooklyn College male grad, but I can tell you that one heck of a lot of male Brooklyn College students would not purse a young woman who is attending Princeton…even if he was equally intelligent.</p>

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<p>"She continues to rhyme with an orange cap with two women behind her in shirts that read ‘Yale sucks’ and ‘Harvard sucks.’</p>

<p>‘You get intimidated when you learn my school?’ she says, ‘Well you should! Cos I’m smarter than you!’"</p>

<p>This is from the article. She is telling the guy she is smarter than him in the video.</p>

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<p>I have an Aunt who remained single during an era when it was unpopular to do so. She had a career which was considered prestigious at that time (private secretary to the Chairman of a very large and well know corporation). She was happy and always said that she loved her job and felt no need for marriage. However, when she was in her late 60’s and retired she surprised us all and announced she was getting married. She said she was tired of dining and traveling alone and just wanted company now that she had so much time. By all accounts the two of them had the time of their lives traveling together in those later years. She is still married to that man and they are both in their 80’s. </p>

<p>While I am wholly supportive of women making whatever choices suit them, I can also see that the choice to remain single may present challenges as one ages. I know when my father died, my mother had a hard time finding friends who were free to travel with her. They were involved with their own children, grandchildren and spouses. She felt awkward always being the third wheel at dinners and outings. Fortunately for her, she had a lot of children to fill that gap. We all included her in family vacations and tried to involve her as much as possible in our lives. Funny thing is that now it has all come full circle. Many of her friends are now also widows or widowers. It is tough these days to get on my mother’s calendar!</p>

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<p>It reminds me of an article bemoaning the fact that more women did not choose to go into politics/ big business, both paths which take an inordinate amount of time.</p>

<p>Id agree that some fields are dominated by men and Id also agree that women should be paid the same for the same work.
But Id also argue that more women are able to see in shades of grey and are able to make compromises to reach a goal.
If family, and time with your family is your priority, you may be willing to accept a slower path in order to achieve that. I see both men & women realizing this earlier in their careers than they did a few generations ago.
You can always get more money, but Ive yet to see anyone be able to buy more time.</p>

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<p>My mom is also very busy. She spends quite a bit of time with her various lady friends, including a widow and divorcee. She and dad celebrate their 60th anniversary this year. Mom and her friends often married men who attended college with them. </p>

<p>Have not had any men refuse to talk with or date me because of my Us or degrees. I didn’t attend ivies, so have no personal experience with this. I did attend a top 50 law school. My friend’s D is very serious with her lab partner. She’ll get her PhD from ivy this spring. They may then relocate where he can peruse his studies and she can do a post doc.</p>

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<p>"I guess my own thinking is that one’s “intellectual equal” does not necessarily have to be one’s “educational equal”.</p>

<p>Most definitely. Plus I don’t really differentiate between bachelors-masters-doctorate. People don’t necessarily get advanced degrees because they’re just that brilliant and crave knowledge, but for career advancement and requirements for a job. Also don’t differentiate much between schools. I was thinking this was more of a commentary on being college educated or not, certainly people can be quite bright if they don’t go to college.</p>

<p>Truth is, my kids were more educated and intellectual than I am, when they were in middle school and I had a masters degree. The difference between a fantastic education and a crummy one.</p>

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<p>This letter writer epitomizes the negative stereotype many at my NYC Specialized HS had about Princeton back in the late-'80s and early-mid '90s…a haven for overentitled snobs who disdained anyone who wasn’t like them…upper/upper-middle class WASP suburbanite*. </p>

<p>Princeton women can only find intellectual equals among male Princeton classmates??? Wonder how she accounts for the athletic or legacy admits with more money than sense as I’ve heard recounted by various HS classmates and relatives who attended Princeton just a decade later than that '77 writer…including an in-law who did fit in SES-wise*. </p>

<p>Also, how does account for those who are highly intelligent/intellectual and yet, attended lower ranking schools on scholarships or didn’t even attend college. Know plenty of such folks who’d run rings around some elite college graduates I’ve seen in the work place. </p>

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<li>Upper-middle class Chinese/HK family who were comfortably full-pay for British public school and Princeton.<br></li>
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<p>Indeed. His mom’s not only going to scare off potential dates, but also expose him to much ridicule among his fellow male peers in and especially out of Princeton. I can see them mocking him with the label “Mama’s boy”…</p>

<p>Being labeled as such is the kiss of death for males hoping to have any credibility/respect from their own peers and potential dates. </p>

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<p>Indeed. This reminds me of an older friend who recounted how when he was an undergrad Physics major he thought he knew a lot because of his advanced studies, stratospheric GPA, and admission to MIT for grad school. </p>

<p>After just a semester in grad school, however, he said he realized that the more he learned/knew…the less confident he was that he knew anything because delving deeper into his field made him realize just how little he really knows about this field…or anything else for that matter. </p>

<p>It’s a funny paradox…but the most intelligent/intellectual folks IME tend to be more introverted, humble, and sometimes even excessively timid. </p>

<p>On the flipside, the extroverted, self-promoting, and extremely confident people I’ve observed IRL and in the news almost always turn out to be BS artists full of little more than hot air. </p>

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<p>This is due to a mix of generations-long socialization combined with the fact that like male elite college graduates, there are also female Ivy/elite graduates who use their educational pedigree as a cudgel against others…including potential dates. </p>

<p>It only takes a few jerks like them to create a poisonous perception that all elite college grads are that way and it isn’t worth getting one’s head bitten off for a potential date that may turn into an effective interrogation of one’s educational/SES status anyways. </p>

<p>Heck, I’ve experienced this firsthand with one date who was a Columbia MBA graduate and a reason why there was no second date.*</p>

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<li>Maybe others have a different take on this…but IMO…first dates are supposed to be light easy going affairs to get to know someone else better without pressure. Asking probing questions about one’s income, SES, educational pedigree, etc tends to go about as well as spending most/all of the date ranting about one’s ex or negative stuff happening in one’s life. There’s a time and a place for those things…but doing so on a first date is jumping the gun a bit and isn’t the place for them.</li>
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<p>I’m with Jonri on this. Where the writer is off is in the presumption that women are looking for what she thinks they are and should be. But if they are, she is right on point.</p>

<p>I’m telling you it 's tough in Manhattan for the single women who want to settle down and are in their 30s or so. Hear it all of the time and an eligible male is a hotter commodity than one would thing, because of the scarcity of them. </p>

<p>Also some of my friends whose daughters have taken the strenuous career paths and are the primary breadwinners of their families are finding it a rough go now that they are starting to have children. Walking that walk you’ve been talking about can be a rough go.</p>

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<p>Well, based on your descriptions of the kids who attended your high school, it doesn’t sound like much of a leap. Weren’t your peers the ones who would bully kids who didn’t get accepted to elite colleges, to the point where many were ashamed to even come to high school reunions because they couldn’t bear the disdain they would receive even a decade later about where they went to school? I mean, “overentitled snobs who disdained anyone who wasn’t like them” sounds exactly like your classmates as you’ve portrayed them. Wouldn’t they have been right at home at Princeton?</p>

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<p>I seriously doubt he’ll be called a mama’s boy. People of my generation really don’t use that term past high school. Believe it or not, we’re able to separate the opinions and experiences of parents from their kids. I just feel bad that it might scare potential partners away.</p>

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<p>The jerky contingent within the top 25% of my graduating class or others before me, yes. </p>

<p>For everyone else who happen to make up the vast majority, no.</p>

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<p>I graduated from Princeton in the late '70s and wound up marrying beneath me: H went to Johns Hopkins. Somehow we’ve survived 27+ years of marriage despite this terribly awkward mismatch. ;)</p>

<p>(And I was not a WASP suburbanite, nor were most of my friends.)</p>

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<p>Let me explain a bit of the background re cobrat’s comments.</p>

<p>When Hargadon was the admissions director at Princeton, very, very, very few grads of the NYC publics were admitted there. This was for a couple of reasons. One is that Hargadon really stressed geographic diversity. This made it hard to get in from NYC. He also really stressed sports. It’s rare to be a recruited athlete coming out of the NYC public magnets. It does happen once in a while, but in that era the public magnets didn’t have ice hockey, lacrosse, squash, field hockey, water polo, etc. teams and the schools rarely excelled in sports like football and basketball. The NYC independent schools had the “prep sports.” Add to this that legacy mattered a lot at Princeton. The bottom line was that very few kids from the NYC public magnets got in and most of those few were legacies and/or the rare recruited athlete. Once in a very great while, a very special kid got in without a hook. But when you have what amounts to a strict geographic quota for NYC and you are filling it with legacies, recruited athletes, celebrity kids and development cases, you had to walk on water to get into Princeton if you didn’t fit in that category. Most of the kids who got into Princeton from NYC really were from the richest most successful families in the City. </p>

<p>Some of the faculty were upset by this and a faculty committee formed to study admissions. The instigators of this openly said they wanted “more Stuyvesant types.” Eventually, Hargardon was forced out about a year or two early. Princeton got a new president who went and visited Stuy live and in person and said “we want more Stuy types.” </p>

<p>The following year the # of kids admitted to Princeton from NYC public magnets tripled. </p>

<p>While 15 years ago it was easier to get into Harvard and Yale from a NYC public magnet than it is today, the reverse is true of Princeton. During the era in which Princeton took almost all of its NYC students from the independent schools, it was viewed–perhaps unfairly–as a snobby place. I’m sure you might have had a completely different perspective if you were looking at the demographics of the kids admitted from Ohio or Arizona.</p>

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<p>“Princeton women can only find intellectual equals among male Princeton classmates???”</p>

<p>Much as I’m not crazy about defending any of this, I don’t see where she says this (I also watched her on tv). The point was that this is the time where you are going to find your best friends, the best chance at a potential mate, people at your intellectual level, should that be important. Where has she specifically said something against any other college? I think people are pulling a lot of implications out of something that wasn’t said.</p>

<p>And she is probably correct, college is where you have your best shot of finding unmarried, close in age, motivated, educated potential mates…numerically, there is a huge group of available men in college that just diminishes in time. I never took any action because I was looking for a man (fortunately the male/female ratio during those years were 98%/2%, pretty sweet odds), but I can see why one might consider it.</p>

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<p>The Princeton alum in-law who married into my extended family married a cousin who graduated from a NE state university known more for their wild parties than their academics…especially when he attended back in the '80s. </p>

<p>They’ll be hitting their 20th anniversary within a few years.</p>

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<p>Depends on the individual concerned. Personally, I’ve found more in common with folks a lot older or a lot younger than me…provided they are at least in their mid-20s. </p>

<p>For that reason, I found dating after undergrad to be a lot better than during undergrad. That…and my LAC campus culture was such that dating wasn’t very popular…</p>